RWC 2011 - Quarter final 3 : Springbokke v. Wallabies CLOSED

[Groucho]

Not to be a pedant, but I'm going to be a pedant. You did say he wasn't available for selection, which wasn't the case. Deans CHOSE not to select him when he was fit to play. I'm not really debating the wisdom of that (although I think he should have been on the bench against Ireland), rather just that Dingo had the option and didn't take it.

Sure, I said that badly.

 

[qwerty51]

nup, I agree with it and said it at the time. I just think the Boks rely on Steyn more than the ABs Carter.

Steyn is both their pressure reliever and also the man that can snag points out of no where. If they aren't making any ground or breaks, then they give it to Steyn to boot it down field or kick it from 50. At the same time they can demoralise the opposition by taking any points on offer.

How is that any different to the other Steyn? Morne is probably only 5m short of Frans place/drop kicking - Morne's punts are superior. It also allows them to use de Villiers (should be de Jongh..) you hardly miss anything.

The All Blacks have attacking alternatives to Carter, and that is part of his success. Nonu outside, Dagg behind, Weepu inside. Take your eye of Carter to cover them and he's through and vice versa.

In saying that, I don't think the kiwis can win three in a row without Carter.

I guess you missed Slade dropping the ball and kicking it away last weekend. Those guys mean nothing if no one delivers them the ball.

 

[whatty]

50/50 game too close too call.

Let there be rain.

 

[Tangawizi]

Interesting Story on Bryce reffing the Wallabies here:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ee-wallabies-quarterfinal-20111004-1l5u7.html

Lawrence to referee Wallabies quarterfinal Darren Walton and Jim Morton
October 4, 2011 - 8:44AM

AAP

New Zealanders are bemoaning the appointment of Welsh referee Nigel Owens for their Rugby World Cup quarter-final, but Australia may have more to fear.

Kiwi whistle-blower Bryce Lawrence will control their sudden-death showdown with South Africa in Wellington on Sunday, just three weeks after his controversial display in the Wallabies' surprise loss to Ireland in the pool stages.

Apart from penalising Australia's scrum five times for collapsing, decisions that ultimately allowed Jonny Sexton and Ronan O'Gara to boot Ireland to a 15-6 victory, Lawrence's officiating of the breakdown was at times puzzling.

In David Pocock's absence with a back injury, Lawrence's latitude at the collision zone proved particularly costly for the Wallabies.

The breakdown has consistently been more of a "free-for-all" under the seasoned referee, making it difficult for harassed halfback Will Genia to feed the Wallabies backline with quick, clean ball.

While the Wallabies all tournament have refused to blame refereeing - or injuries - for less than convincing performances, Lawrence's display at Eden Park drew widespread criticism from fans and commentators alike.

Australia did beat South Africa 14-9 in Durban and minnows Russia 68-22 under Lawrence, but in his three Tests in charge this year they have been heavily punished.

The total count stands at 34-19 against.

The Wallabies have also finished on the wrong side of the penalty count in three of their four pool games and know they must be extremely disciplined in the highly-physical contest.

South Africa have lost injured centre Frans Steyn - and his ability to slot goals from 60 metres out - but regardless the Wallabies know they can ill-afford to be penalised against the kick-happy Springboks.

Skipper James Horwill flatly denied the Wallabies would be pushing the boundaries at the breakdown in the comfort of Steyn's absence.

With the tournament's leading pointscorer Morne Steyn in great goalkicking form, the Springboks still have the ability to punish the Wallabies for their every infringement.

"Morne Steyn is a fantastic kicker and I think his record in this tournament is pretty high," Horwill said.

"So you've got to be aware that their goalkicking ability across the board is pretty strong with or without Frans Steyn.

"You've got to have that in the back of your mind, that you can't give away silly penalties to allow them free points with kicks at goals."

Interestingly, Lawrence is one of three southern hemisphere referees appointed by the IRB to control the four quarter-finals.

Welshman Owens, under fire for last weekend's performance in the Boks' 13-5 win over Samoa, is the only northern appointment with the likes of Irishman Alain Rolland and Englishman Wayne Barnes overlooked.

Barnes is still a reviled figure in New Zealand for his ghastly miss of a French forward pass four years ago which led to the All Blacks' 2007 quarter-final demise.

Their would have been some relief from the tournament hosts when he was overlooked on Monday, but it was not celebrated.

"Oh no, we've got Nigel," was a headline in New Zealand's Fairfax Newspapers.

South African Craig Joubert will control Saturday's opening between Ireland and Wales, while Kiwi-born Australian Steve Walsh will referee England versus France.

© 2011 AAP

Would be great to actually see a video analysis of the scrum penalties he gave in the Irish & Russian matches. Is he really out to get us or is that just the perception?

 

[Braveheart81]

Australia should fast track Dan Vickerman through the referees course this week so if Bryce asks him if he's a doctor or a lawyer he can answer "No, I'm a referee."

 

[Lee Grant]

Like most Wallabies supporters I just want the forwards to show up. If they do that we have a good chance to win. We have played some of our best rugby against the Boks in the last couple of years including winning twice away from home - and it should have been 3. Although the Boks we played this year weren't their main team, the forward performance we put on would have held us in good stead against their top guys.

Australia has always had this hot and cold forwards problem for the 60 years I have been watching them. Hard forward play is not ingrained in them. Somebody blamed it on the private schools, (without which Oz rugby as we know it now would not exist.) You could just as well blame it on our benign climate and the hard, sandy soil of the seaboard. Both give a premium to running rugby and a discount to play that is needed in the rain and mud. Or you could blame fathers and uncles who perpetuated ball in hand coaching to their sons and nephews because it was what they had been taught when they were nippers themselves.

Any theory will do, but give or take short periods such as around the times when we had a Grand Slam tour and a couple of RWC wins, our forward grunt has been hot and cold.

It was appalling to watch our boys against Ireland. All credit to boyos because they were terrific that night but you could not say they had a better pack than what the All Blacks put against us in Brisbane. Our lads showed up that night and didn't allow the Blacks to do what Ireland did easily time after time.

It was not just the forwards though, watching and waiting at the rucks, even their own rucks. As is so often the case when the forwards are passive, the backs were passive on defence and not attacking the the Ireland backline.

With our grunt record the chances of Oz playing physically three games in a row are not great, but at least we can think of playing like that in the next game. Oddly we seem to play harder against the most physically demanding team on the planet, year in year out, the Springboks.

Let's hope that our men man-up against them again – and kick some goals.

 

[Ash]

Agree with Lee.

The key to that first half of the Brisbane Bledisloe was the forwards getting out there and dominating. They got off the line fast, and they hit hard in defence and drove the All Blacks backwards. Screw the backs, the Wallabies won it in the forwards for the 40, and such was the domination, whoever were the Australian backs didn't matter so much so long as their tackles stuck.

That intensity was gone completely against the Irish. Additionally, the Irish cleverly took the ball more than one pass off the ruck, with SO'B typically taking a pop-pass to crash over the advantage line, whereas the Wallabies took it one pass out and the Irish were up quickly. A copying of the Irish tactic of a flat forward popping to a forward on the charge would've worked beautifully, as it did for them.

On attack, when the ball is slow, Genia and Cooper like to slow it down and get some forward pods to get some go-forward, quick ball and upset the defensive line prior to Cooper getting the ball. It's actually easier to see this live, as you see Cooper and Genia screaming at the forwards to get set, and Cooper quite clearly signalling he doesn't want the ball. I would love to see the Wallaby forwards copy the Irish (and they have done this in the past) and just pop that extra inside or outside ball to shift the face of forward hit-up - going one-out is all too predictable, and the Irish killed it wonderfully.

 

[fatprop]

My concern is whether the Aus pigs can concentrate and keep their shape for 80 minutes, and the whole side can demonstrate decent line speed for 80 minutes

 

[tranquility]

How much game time did TPN get against Russia? Surely that would have been a good opportunity for him to get some yards in the legs...

 

[fatprop]

How much game time did TPN get against Russia? Surely that would have been a good opportunity for him to get some yards in the legs...

none, and he hasn't looked great in his games throughout the round robin, his dynamism is his key attribute - it hasn't been their throughout these games

 

[Country Kid]

For me, the most dissappointing aspect of the Australian forward play has been lack of teamwork. All other forward packs at the rwc have impressed with their forward play, particularly with speed & good numbers to the breakdown.

Whereas in the Ireland game, individually our guys played hard and with intensity but I hard pressed to recall a time when two/three forwards hit rucks in combination. It is incredably frustrating when the Wallabies either fail to retain possession and fail to regain possession because too many forwards decided to hang off (waiting to do a carry I guess) rather than commit to winning the contest at the breakdown.

 

[RuckinGoodStats]

Just to advise I'm putting together a piece on Bryce's ref stats for 2011. I've coded everyone of his game from Super15 through to RWC. I'm sending it to Gaggar and if he likes it, up it goes. Look out for it Thursday-ish. Will do a seperate analysis on his game where he ref'ed the Wallabies. Haven't looked at the number yet so going in with an open mind and let the number speak for themselves...

Anyone think it worth doing the analysis?

 

[Braveheart81]

Anyone think it worth doing the analysis?

As long as they make Bryce look bad, for sure!

 

[Major Spliff Biggins]

Just to advise I'm putting together a piece on
Anyone think it worth doing the analysis?

Absolutely.

It would go someway to explain whether some of us are paranoid conspiracy nuts, or our scrum does get unfairly penalised.

 

[Duncher]

Just to advise I'm putting together a piece on Bryce's ref stats for 2011. I've coded everyone of his game from Super15 through to RWC. I'm sending it to Gaggar and if he likes it, up it goes. Look out for it Thursday-ish. Will do a seperate analysis on his game where he ref'ed the Wallabies. Haven't looked at the number yet so going in with an open mind and let the number speak for themselves...

Anyone think it worth doing the analysis?

YES!!!! Just had a quick look at some now... it makes for UGLY reading. Then again RGS, we have been on the wrong side of the penalty count 6 out of 9 tests this year... Never knew we were so ill disciplined

 

[hedgo]

For me, the most dissappointing aspect of the Australian forward play has been lack of teamwork. All other forward packs at the rwc have impressed with their forward play, particularly with speed & good numbers to the breakdown.

Whereas in the Ireland game, individually our guys played hard and with intensity but I hard pressed to recall a time when two/three forwards hit rucks in combination. It is incredably frustrating when the Wallabies either fail to retain possession and fail to regain possession because too many forwards decided to hang off (waiting to do a carry I guess) rather than commit to winning the contest at the breakdown.

beautifully put country kid. i simply can't grasp the whole stand around and watch thing that our blokes do. give me an animal like read who actually wants the contact. who lives to bash up against other blokes cos none of our guys seem to have it

 

[No4918]

none, and he hasn't looked great in his games throughout the round robin, his dynamism is his key attribute - it hasn't been their throughout these games

I agree, been very disappointed with TPN. His contributions so far with his lineout throwing and work around the park being well below par. I really wouldn't mind too much if Fainga'a was on the bench this weekend. Particularly if Smit is on the bench so Faingaas weakness at scrumtime will be far less likely to be found out.

 

[Scotty]

woo guys.

what's done is done. We all know that Australia have won 5/5 last games under Barnes, we have a pretty shite record with Bryce, but his interpretations are his. We may not like them, It can be frustrating, but remember he's a poor old professional that dedicates his time to the game of rugby and cops it. the question we should all be talking about is how can we beat SA with Bryce reffing? What tactics should the wallabies play with? Etc.

The big questions for me are:

1. Why isn't barnes reffing at all this weekend
2. Why do we still have different 'interpretations' between the top refs?

 

[Scotty]

The Irish were clearly better and deserved most of their penalties, the notable exception being the one where he let the Irish prop go to his knees then drive up through the wallaby front row then penalized us.

Against the Russians we were clearly superior so it certainly seemed like he was only watching one side. He even let the whole russian back five detach on one occasion. I would like him to explain that one.

We need to go back to more short arm penalties in scrums unless it is cut and dry who has offended. Scrum penalties and the inability of refs to make the tackler release the tackled player are currently the bain of this world cup. It is time we had referees that consistently award playing with the ball rather than encouraging negative tactics.

 

[minorbird]

The problem with more short arm penalties for the scrum over long arm penalties is that you effectively reduce the frequency at which teams can take the shot at goal / go to the lineout and move away from the scrums. If a team is playing negative tactics, then they may just exploit their real or perceived ascendancy in the scrum and push for a yellow card, which just slows down the game even further.