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RWC 2011 - Quarter final 3 : Springbokke v. Wallabies CLOSED

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potjiekos

Guest
@ Lee ... Interesting analogy there mate.....

It was NEVER my intention to equate every infringement ever committed by either team, nor was I attempting to villify any one team or an individual player. I was merely trying to highlight the inefficiencies of Sir Lawrence of Bryce, as an international referee.... thought you could identify that??

Since you've opened up the door, I might as well oblige....

I am on record here as saying that I deplore foul (dangerous) play in rugby, in all its forms especially when transgressed by one of the boks. Such conduct is contrary to the spirit of the game and can never be condoned. In this regard, I concede that Schalks 'excessive raking' may be construed as dangerous play for several reasons, none more important than the potential damage that may be caused to Pocock's eyes or even worse ...his spinal column.

Semantics, I tell you! It's quite evident that the 'eye-gouging / excessive raking' debacle, boils down to perspective.......

In my laymans perspective, I understand 'eye-gouging' to amount to the forceful application of one's hand (eg...fingers, knuckles, palm) to the eyeball or eye-socket of another, with the EXPRESS INTENTION to cause extreme pain and disorientation. The victim of an eye-gouge would almost always require immediate on-field medical attention and / or would be substituted for further evaluation.

The assertion by a rugby pundit such as yourself, (I would like to think that you are!)....that Schalk gouged the eye(s) of Sir David, especially when taking the aforementioned into account, completely boggles the mind....

....the 'once-an-eye-gouger-always-an-eye-gouger' tag attributed to Schalk IMHO, is also not a fair tag, especially since he's not only matured as a senior member of the boks over the years, he's also made great strides to clean up his act and play within the rules of the game.

In the spirit of branding players based on past infractions, I could easily call Dan Vickerman a brutish lout due to his propensity to KNEE defenseless players in the head, but I wont 'cause its just not right....
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
@ Lee ... Interesting analogy there mate.....

It was NEVER my intention to equate every infringement ever committed by either team, nor was I attempting to villify any one team or an individual player. I was merely trying to highlight the inefficiencies of Sir Lawrence of Bryce, as an international referee.... thought you could identify that??

Since you've opened up the door, I might as well oblige....

I am on record here as saying that I deplore foul (dangerous) play in rugby, in all its forms especially when transgressed by one of the boks. Such conduct is contrary to the spirit of the game and can never be condoned. In this regard, I concede that Schalks 'excessive raking' may be construed as dangerous play for several reasons, none more important than the potential damage that may be caused to Pocock's eyes or even worse ...his spinal column.

Semantics, I tell you! It's quite evident that the 'eye-gouging / excessive raking' debacle, boils down to perspective.......

In my laymans perspective, I understand 'eye-gouging' to amount to the forceful application of one's hand (eg...fingers, knuckles, palm) to the eyeball or eye-socket of another, with the EXPRESS INTENTION to cause extreme pain and disorientation. The victim of an eye-gouge would almost always require immediate on-field medical attention and / or would be substituted for further evaluation.

The assertion by a rugby pundit such as yourself, (I would like to think that you are!)....that Schalk gouged the eye(s) of Sir David, especially when taking the aforementioned into account, completely boggles the mind....

....the 'once-an-eye-gouger-always-an-eye-gouger' tag attributed to Schalk IMHO, is also not a fair tag, especially since he's not only matured as a senior member of the boks over the years, he's also made great strides to clean up his act and play within the rules of the game.

In the spirit of branding players based on past infractions, I could easily call Dan Vickerman a brutish lout due to his propensity to KNEE defenseless players in the head, but I wont 'cause its just not right....

"he's also made great strides to clean up his act and play within the rules of the game": they're laws, but he was off his feet and did not retire behind the hind most foot prior to rejoining. He was not entitled to do anything after he lost his feet.
 

Godfrey

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Can you see how the term "excessive raking", which you appear to have invented, is just a euphemism? It implies that raking the face across the eyes is ok, Schalk just did it too much. How much raking could he have done for it to not be "excessive". For mine, I could care less whether he was successful at actually getting Pocock's eyes out. As Lee said, Schalk doesn't get the benefit of the doubt - the evidence is strong AND he's got form. Hell, this isn't even the first time he's tried this on Pocock. There's a YouTube video floating around that shows Pocock smashing Burger out of a ruck and Schalk responding exactly as he did here.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
My goodness look what's washed up (floating around - get it?):
[video=youtube;3nV-6bg0pRo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nV-6bg0pRo[/video]

And there's even a touch of biased commenting apropos another thread........biased because, yes Pocock was slowing the ball down, but that's not, per se, illegal: he was on his feet and there were no players in contact over the ball so it could not be a ruck. he therefore had the right to handle the ball and there is simply no way that either Sharpe or Fat Cat came in from the side.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
The eyes should be sacrosanct. Is it my imagination, or was ther a Welsh club player (Quinnell) recently blinded in one eye from an eye gouge?
 

Budgie

Chris McKivat (8)
The eyes should be sacrosanct. Is it my imagination, or was ther a Welsh club player (Quinnell) recently blinded in one eye from an eye gouge?

Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Quinnell
Gavin Quinnell (born 25 November 1983 in Llanelli, Wales) is a former Welsh rugby union player. His career was ended as a result of an eye gouge in a Welsh premiership game. He played for several teams in England, Wales and Italy but finished his career with Magners league side Llanelli Scarlets. He is the son of Derek Quinnell and brother of Scott Quinnell and Craig Quinnell, all former Wales internationals.
Before joining Llanelli Scarlets he started rugby in his home village for Furnace United RFC, as a youth player where he played mainly at Number 8.
In 2006 he left the Llanelli Scarlets to join Worcester Warriors in a two-year deal.[1] He scored a total of nine tries in 20 appearances in his first season at Sixways and quickly became a cult hero with his all-action displays.
Quinnell can play at Number 8, flanker or lock and established himself as a powerful impact player for Warriors.
After not being offered a new contract by Worcester at the end of the 2007-08 season, Gavin Quinnell was forced to find a new club. He then moved on to Italian Super 10 club Viadana.
On 23 July 2010, Quinnell rejoined his former team Scarlets on a two-year contract.[2]
Quinnell suffered an eye injury 30 minutes into a game against Cross Keys on 2 October 2010. The following Thursday it was confirmed that, despite the best efforts of surgeons, he had lost the sight in his left eye.[3] The incident is currently being investigated by the Welsh Rugby Union and Gwent Police
.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
his is just getting rediculous!

Noakes is apparently a well respected scientist. It doesn't say how Lawrence benefited from "fixing" the match. Maybe he didn't want to be an international referee anymore?

Noakes said he wasn't saying there was match fixing, but that it was up to the IRB "to prove there wasn't".

It seems that after every match the IRB should prove it wasn't fixed! Brilliant idea!
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
No because someone who may or may not have purposely tapped someone in the head with his knee is nothing compared to deliberately and repeatedly raking your fingers across someone's eyes.

Either you're joking, delusional or both.

Quade kneed Richie in the head.

May or may not. Please.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
"he's also made great strides to clean up his act and play within the rules of the game": they're laws, but he was off his feet and did not retire behind the hind most foot prior to rejoining. He was not entitled to do anything after he lost his feet.

Exactly right - as mentioned.....

....And if you want to add up a list of infringements add two more in that one incident, for Burger being on the ground when he raked/eye gouged and another for not going back to last feet when he released Pocock's face to do another. How Lawrence missed those other two things are as mysterious as the things you come up with.

Whether he raked or gouged - he was offside and also performed an action off his feet.
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
My goodness look what's washed up (floating around - get it?):
[video=youtube;3nV-6bg0pRo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nV-6bg0pRo[/video]

And there's even a touch of biased commenting apropos another thread........biased because, yes Pocock was slowing the ball down, but that's not, per se, illegal: he was on his feet and there were no players in contact over the ball so it could not be a ruck. he therefore had the right to handle the ball and there is simply no way that either Sharpe or Fat Cat came in from the side.

Choke slam. Outrage.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
"Match-fixing"? Really. This thread's becoming silly, Sully. Could one of the mods put it to sleep.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Right again:
yes Pocock was slowing the ball down, but that's not, per se, illegal: he was on his feet and there were no players in contact over the ball so it could not be a ruck. he therefore had the right to handle the ball and there is simply no way that either Sharpe or Fat Cat came in from the side.

As I said on that other thread, which I think is the one you are referring to:

If you look at the sequence in the full replay, just before the video sequence in the thread: BdP goes to ground; he could have released the ball immediately, really immediately, and before he tried to lay the egg but he didn't; he laid it and Pocock had him by then and he stopped the egg being laid and FdP couldn't get his hands on it.

The first penalty should have been against BdP. Looking back at it it wasn't even a ruck at that point because the first Bok assist, Burger, was not in contact over the ball, just dragging Pococks face backwards. It wasn't until F.Louw (I think) came in followed by swinger Matfield that there was actually a ruck.

As per the Law Clarification in May 2009: Providing a player from either side on their feet after a tackle comply with all aspects of Law 15 and have the ball in their hands prior to contact with an opposition player on his feet those players may continue with possession of the ball even if a player from the opposition makes contact with those players in possession of the ball.

Therefore if Pocock had his hands on the ball on the Boks side of BdP's arse before Louw came in (when the ruck was formed) he was entitled to keep his hands on it afterwards.

When you lay the egg you have to do it literally immediately. There was an instruction to enforce it like that a few years ago. The rationale behind it was that the body of the player going to ground stopped the defenders from getting at the ball when he shoved it in the tunnel between his legs.

Everybody does it; some people like BdP that time get away with it, some don't. That's not the point though. The point is that comments from folks who say that Pocock was infringing before Schalk did his eye gouging/face raking are incorrect as the ruck was not formed until F.Louw arrived at which time Pocock was entitled to keep his hands on the ball behind BdP's arse.
 
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