Robbie Deans Report Card

[TheRiddler]

Kafer, well, when is the last time his analysis actually happened before something,

The day has arrived. I actually agree with WJ on something. It feels quite cathartic actually.

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Well, WJ, you have a point about defence. The Wallabies used to have a brick wall defence. When Robbie came in and started tinkering, we gave away more points immediately.

Am I right in thinking that was about the time that Muggleton left or was shown the door? Funny how some of our better defence coaches seem to come from a league background.

 

[Reddy!]

Muggo was in the running for Wallaby coach too.

 

[RedsHappy]

Well, WJ, you have a point about defence. The Wallabies used to have a brick wall defence. When Robbie came in and started tinkering, we gave away more points immediately. At the time I said - give it time. Because he was trying to put in place a system where defence becomes attack. But for whatever reason, this aspect of Wallaby play has been a complete failure. Our defence is numerically a lot worse, and we aren't turning defence into attack.

_Very_ valid overall. Perhaps though 'complete failure' is a tad harsh, the defence in Perth was quite good/very good. But what is unarguable is that it has become, along with everything else, a core component of the scary roulette wheel of 'what will go wrong this week to completely cancel out what might have gone right?' And if you add defence into that casino mix, as you say Scarf that in itself is absolute degradation from our past history of consistently excellent defence.

 

[cyclopath]

Valid points about the game changing, WJ, BUT talented guys from other eras were good because they were intelligent players, and I have no doubt they could adapt to the "new" game, so would have plenty to offer. I would not discount their value so much. Interesting point about Kafer, which may well have some merit!!
Our defensive structure has deteriorated, without a doubt, and we used to lead the world in that area, so in that respect I completely agree.

 

[Gnostic]

Mugo had to go. His defensive systems were at the end of their life and were not progressing at all. They were also static League style defences which while generally strong one on one do not cope well with players being sucked into mauls and do not allow for commitment to the ruck. Thirdly the defensive arragnement does not allow it self for players to position for rapid counter attack, hence why we rarely saw a counter attacking Wallabies side. Lastly the Mugo type defence required a very homogenous type of player able to meet the one on one tackles. Props had to be ultra mobile as were the locks. It is not chance that a generation of props and Locks trained for mobility and sacrified the red muscle (strength) for the fast twitch fibre (speed). Eddie Jones has been piloried (and rightly so) for the total lack of attention our set piece received but it was as much a problem as the requirements imposed on the players to meet the Mugo style defence.

Under the Deans style (a more traditional Rugby defence system) the flat line and speed is important, but just as essential are the sweepers. The training of the tight 5 for speed has been lessened so they can again develop the required attributes for the set piece. It should also be noted that this change also coincides with the improvement in the Oz maul and our ability to counter opposition mauls.

 

[Gnostic]

Aww thanks RH, but I don't understand why you have a picture of Burgess celebrating a try against the Reds. It disgusts me.

Also, welcome aboard Gnostic. You are my favourite Aussie poster from PR. I'll get your signature another time though.

Thanks for the welcome. What is your PR name?

 

[Moses]

Reddy, that arrived by vapour from our moderators! No doubt, with good humour and wit intended as most support the Tahs, do they not?
I tried to think of a time the Reds had made me happy as that would go with your name, and this game where Cooper was talking in the press all week about being the entertainers came to mind. Phil Waugh was quiet during the week, but suggested after full time that Quade would be entertaining at his BBQ while we were busy playing finals.

But note: the photo is pre-2010 Reds I think. That really does say it all.

I'm sure there's an equally happy pic from 2010, Palu would feature in this one.

 

[waratahjesus]

Valid points about the game changing, WJ, BUT talented guys from other eras were good because they were intelligent players, and I have no doubt they could adapt to the "new" game, so would have plenty to offer. I would not discount their value so much. Interesting point about Kafer, which may well have some merit!!
Our defensive structure has deteriorated, without a doubt, and we used to lead the world in that area, so in that respect I completely agree.

im not writing them off completely, in my opinion todays game has become more about constant drills over the advantage line than the set plays of old. The rugby league defensive structure that was brought in took out the chance to run deep backline moves, up to 99 there is so many trys scored off slow run arounds or plays that were intended to drag a single man out of the defensive line that the horans and campeses of this world were able to take advantage of. come the later years and Larkhams success was on the back of him always moving forward compared to the traditional 5/8 link play. Im just not sure they offer as much as we believe they do (but they would offer a winning culture that is sorely missing)

for me i think we need a new style, deans has a style that alot of the all blacks players already know and he has less skilled players to do it with. We need a coach who will take two years of losing as a way of becoming the best team int he world, not take two years of losing just to catch up.

 

[RedsHappy]

.Reddy, that arrived by vapour from our moderators! No doubt, with good humour and wit intended as most support the Tahs, do they not?

Moses: I tried to think of a time the Reds had made me happy as that would go with your name, and this game where Cooper was talking in the press all week about being the entertainers came to mind. Phil Waugh was quiet during the week, but suggested after full time that Quade would be entertaining at his BBQ while we were busy playing finals.

I'm sure there's an equally happy pic from 2010, Palu would feature in this one.

HaHaHa....that Palu try in hindsight was what kept us out of the 4! So, to avoid further unjustified humiliation by moderator, can I choose a pic now?

I have now a more serious point - or thesis perhaps - and it's this:

If either the Reds 2010 or Waratahs (any recent year) were playing Ireland on Saturday night, they would have both beaten Ireland with a 15+ points gap....

 

[Ruggo]

That's a big call about the Palu try RH. I saw the denial of a penalty for in from the side after Digby's break in the last play of the Sharks game as the crucial point.

All in the past now though.

 

[Reddy!]

Thanks for the welcome. What is your PR name?

prassa

I didn't post too often, but I've basically stop posting there now. But I still have a browse around the forum because I like the international flavour to it.

 

[Moses]

HaHaHa....that Palu try in hindsight was what kept us out of the 4! So, to avoid further unjustified humiliation by moderator, can I choose a pic now?

No problems at all, you can upload one by clicking on 'Forum Actions', 'Edit Profile', 'Edit Avatar'. Or just click here.

 

[Langthorne]

WJ - haven't seen you around for a while - you make some excellent points re the potential value of Wallaby legends and on the Wallaby defence.

RedsHappy - the 2010 Reds and Waratahs may well have been able to beat Ireland well, but it would depend on which players were available, and which 'version/attitude/style' turned up to play (the Reds and the Waratahs both had some games to forget as well as some very good games)

Regarding the Wallabies defence - there are a couple of players (one in particular) who are a little, shall we say, tackle shy. This is a situation that cannot be allowed to continue - it is as problematic as the dodgy scrum as both a fundamental skills (catch, pass, tackle, ruck, maul, kick, set peices). As I mentioned in my first post, and has been mentioned by others since, Robbie Deans doesn't really have loads of time to train the players (compared with the Super 15 coaches), but what time he has needs to be well used.

 

[RedsHappy]

RedsHappy - the 2010 Reds and Waratahs may well have been able to beat Ireland well, but it would depend on which players were available, and which 'version/attitude/style' turned up to play (the Reds and the Waratahs both had some games to forget as well as some very good games)
.

Yes, but this is a bit picky . I do appreciate that no team wins every time and that there was indeed variation in these S14 teams' performances (as there are in Test teams). My more general point stands, I believe.

This point hit me hard on Saturday, and it was not at all a good feeling to have - namely, I honestly could see the Tahs and the 2010 Reds beating this Ireland far more convincingly than the Wallabies were/did. Ie, in many senses these teams were in fact better constructed, co-ordinated and led on field than these 2010 Wallabies, and both with better attacks. And let's recall the Oz s14 teams overall had a relatively good S14 season, as a group.

It's as though this year's 'youth and development' Wallabies package has disaggregated (with more loss than gain) some key 'success cells' (ie certain tight knit player combos that worked really well) that contributed (in particular) to the Reds and Waratahs good S14 seasons. Both packs of forwards come to mind (Baxter v much included). And the Reds back line with its harmonious capacity to work attacks off Copper and Genia. That's all gone now (until 2011)....and what do we have in the place of these 'cells'....not much happiness...

 

[RedsHappy]

Regarding the Wallabies defence - there are a couple of players (one in particular) who are a little, shall we say, tackle shy. This is a situation that cannot be allowed to continue - it is as problematic as the dodgy scrum as both a fundamental skills (catch, pass, tackle, ruck, maul, kick, set peices). As I mentioned in my first post, and has been mentioned by others since, Robbie Deans doesn't really have loads of time to train the players (compared with the Super 15 coaches), but what time he has needs to be well used.

Well, there was some time for training before the Fiji game when the 2010 Wallabies assembled. I doubt that time was used optimally for the intensive training you infer is required. I compared and contrasted the fine state of readiness-to-conquer the ABs showed in their first half v Ireland, with the Wallabies multiple handling errors, so-called 'excusable rustiness' (which I consider an indulgent term to apply to top players whom have played a full S14 season already) and (just) scrum parity with Fiji. It was if the Wallabies had spent the prior week chatting over Masterchef vs intense, hard preparations for a first Test match. I can honestly say I said to myself (and others) at the time: this Fiji test is just jam-packed full of bad omens.

You see - please add this to the list - I don't think Deans is actually driving these players that hard until they break in a training and skills sense. I don't get the sense that these Wallabies would be out to 10pm under lights working and reworking back line plays until they were finessed to near-perfection.

I think it was Austin whom reported (anecdotally) that his direct observations of the Wallabies in pre-Suncorp training were of low intensity and focus, especially in the backs. If so, I think we witnessed the consequences of that complacency on Saturday. The 4 Tests this year have been _full_ of basic skill errors. I continue to say, there appears to be a lack of competent depth in this Deans coaching group and I don't believe they are preparing the Wallabies pre-game with the aggression, attention to skill detail, and intensity and relentless practice required.

Let's move on: Deans now has 3+ weeks to drive this poor team culture onto a rapidly improving path. There is good time for intense skills work, endless back line preparation, detailed game plans development, addressing any inter-player problems, etc. You, Reddy and I said weeks ago (when it was less fashionable ;-) ) that Deans must be set clear markers that demonstrate tangible improvements compared to today's tangible delinquencies.

For that July 24 Test, I for one demand that we see clear evidence (across the whole 80 mins) that this 3+ week break period has been successfully used for a major, 6 day a week, 10 hr a day if needed, improvement in (for example) Wallabies core skills, team integration and communication, and far, far better back line development/play than was on show in that lamentable Suncorp outing. There can be no excuse whatsoever that 'there is not enough time for training' between Tests.

 

[mark_s]

Continuing with my flipping and flopping on Deans, its just (and only just) possible that he has deliberately not prepared the squad well for the June tests to make them work hard, scrap through and bounce back as required. He will have seen how this team has sailed through the June tests in previous years only to crash and burn in the 3Ns due to overconfidence and lack of ability to close out tight games.

In previous years, the June tests (easy wins against second stringers) haven't really given the Wobbs the preparation they need for the 3N and so he wanted to shake it up a bit. Its a long shot but, as Monty Python said, always look on the bright side of life.

 

[daz]

For that July 24 Test, I for one demand that we see clear evidence (across the whole 80 mins) that this 3+ week break period has been successfully used for a major, 6 day a week, 10 hr a day if needed, improvement in (for example) Wallabies core skills, team integration and communication, and far, far better back line development/play than was on show in that lamentable Suncorp outing. There can be no excuse whatsoever that 'there is not enough time for training' between Tests.

Sounds good RH. One slight drawback is that with that kind of training schedule, they should turn up for the first game absolutely knackered....!

 

[daz]

Continuing with my flipping and flopping on Deans

I'm with you. One day I'm for, the next day (usually after a test!) I'm against. The constant for and against argument in my head is seriously going to do me an injury....

 

[RedsHappy]

Sounds good RH. One slight drawback is that with that kind of training schedule, they should turn up for the first game absolutely knackered....!

Look, I think you know what I am getting at. Was just trying to make the point in extremis: I want to see evidence on July 24 of proper corrective action, in depth, done is an intensely committed manner, and of the standards expected of an expensive, elite coaching group.

I don't want PR statements, progress updates, and reassuring homilies that are never delivered on the field of dreams.