Robbie Deans Report Card

[RedsHappy]

OK, reviving this thread. In today's Grumbles column: In my list of things wrong with the Wallabies, I don't see "TipTop needs to carry more". But I only got down to number 50 so it might be there.

Just to add a side note on this: the ARU PR machine is here working in overdrive. This is the second 'Dean Mumm shares all concerns and worries' story they have set up for GG in just a few weeks - a similar one ran recently in RugbyH where the line was 'Mumm's realised he must try harder'. They are infusing the 'pressure's right on the players, competition for spots, we want and demand 'physicality'' line into the media, Wayne S in The Australian is also happy to push this stuff out too.

Sorry to be the cynic that I am re many ARU PR ploys, but I do believe that this obvious, conscious media thrust is in part designed to deflect pressure from the coaches and media assessments thereof, and onto the players. The one thing, about the only thing, I agreed with Marto on the Rugby Club this week was when he noted that Australia was generally way less demanding on its elite rugby coaches than most other top rugby nations.

 

[fatprop]

Sorry to be the cynic that I am re many ARU PR ploys, but I do believe that this obvious, conscious media thrust is in part designed to deflect pressure from the coaches and media assessments thereof, and onto the players.

Why is that a problem? The senior players that are left need to lift, half this shit with the wingers looks to me to be about sticking a rocket up the unit and their attitude.

I want to see forwards coming off the field looking like Tom Donnelly did last weekend, absolutely shattered from putting 100% effort in to the match.

 

[DPK]

If they wanted only 100% committed players who only play for the love of the game then they shouldn't have turned the sport professional.

 

[RedsHappy]

Why is that a problem? The senior players that are left need to lift, half this shit with the wingers looks to me to be about sticking a rocket up the unit and their attitude. I want to see forwards coming off the field looking like Tom Donnelly did last weekend, absolutely shattered from putting 100% effort in to the match.

Let me tell you why I think it's a (big) problem.

First up, of course I agree: the players have to perform, and be expected to perform to a high level in an elite sport and with our flag on their backs. No issue there as a principle.

But if crass media ploys and ARU media leaking re who'll be dropped (a la as happened to Drew M and Gits weeks back) are what has to be resorted to 'get the message across', then IMO you have a serious problem of team culture and player attitude _before this even commences_. If the coaches can't over 2+ years develop or enhance a strongly patriotic, totally dedicated, super hard working mindset in an elite sports team such that these aspects are, more or less, a positive given, then either (a) the players/team will never succeed and/or (b) you have coaches that can only manage what I would loosely call 'playing mechanics' and not team culture and mindset and work ethic. And you'll never build a consistently successful top team just working on game plans and the mechanical aspects of what the team must do. You have to have a terrific, aggressive, dedicated team culture with 'hard mind'. (Btw, right now, I don't see that in these Wallabies, but that's another story.)

I also think the 'just kick these lazy ungrateful bastards up the arse and give them a shock' is, at this stage of Wallaby evolution mid-2010, a tacit admission of failure already on foot. With the right players and team culture and coaching leadership, that approach should be an unnecessary last resort, not a means of desperately trying to gain motivation from key players at the last minute, so to speak.

(As you know, I have said elsewhere that I believe elite rugby in Australia has detached itself from the finest, world-beating Australian team sport traditions of 'hard mind', incredible mental aggression, never a backward step, total commitment in every way, etc. But, again, that's another story.)

 

[RedsHappy]

If they wanted only 100% committed players who only play for the love of the game then they shouldn't have turned the sport professional.

DPK - IMO it is possible, demonstrably so, to have elite Australian sports teams/players that:

- do love their games with high passion;
- are very patriotic and proud to represent their country on very possible occasion;
- play with a team mind that is intense, dedicated and highly mentally aggressive in the best of Australian sports traditions;

and yet expect to be paid what they are worth in terms of a fair share for their own skills and, overall, a fair share of total game income (as they contribute to that income).

All I am saying is these variables need not be, and often are not, 'either/ors'.

 

[cyclopath]

Why is that a problem? The senior players that are left need to lift, half this shit with the wingers looks to me to be about sticking a rocket up the unit and their attitude.

I want to see forwards coming off the field looking like Tom Donnelly did last weekend, absolutely shattered from putting 100% effort in to the match.

Abso-farken-lutely. One of the moments of the match that defined the ABs effort was his face as he sat down on the bench, blowing like he'd just done the 400m, looking shattered and too tired to even grab a drink.
And players shoulder too little of the blame sometimes. Sure the coach has to put out a game plan, with options, but ultimately it is the players who have to get it done, and make some decisions about what they're going to do if it aint working. Don't tell me Noddy Lynagh looked to Bob Dwyer in the stands when Aust were behind Ireland in 1991 with minutes left to decide how they would set things up to score the winning try.
On the Rugby Club they talked about mongrel (which JP didn't understand, surprisingly) and I think Kearns summed it up as not going all Bakkies, but senior guys taking the lead and setting an example of aggression and application that the others MUST follow.
But if a rocket must be lit, the coach should light it, not some media hack from the ARU leaking it.

 

[Richo]

RedsHappy, you're on the money. Look at our cricket team in the Waugh years, for example, or the early Punter teams. Utterly committed to winning at any cost even after years and years of being an entire cut and a half above the competition.

 

[RedsHappy]

Abso-farken-lutely. One of the moments of the match that defined the ABs effort was his face as he sat down on the bench, blowing like he'd just done the 400m, looking shattered and too tired to even grab a drink. And players shoulder too little of the blame sometimes. Sure the coach has to put out a game plan, with options, but ultimately it is the players who have to get it done, and make some decisions about what they're going to do if it aint working. Don't tell me Noddy Lynagh looked to Bob Dwyer in the stands when Aust were behind Ireland in 1991 with minutes left to decide how they would set things up to score the winning try. On the Rugby Club they talked about mongrel (which JP didn't understand, surprisingly) and I think Kearns summed it up as not going all Bakkies, but senior guys taking the lead and setting an example of aggression and application that the others MUST follow.But if a rocket must be lit, the coach should light it, not some media hack from the ARU leaking it.

All noted above Cyclo...but why do you think more of the 1991 events you reference, and the Tom D utter dedication/80 mins of intensity, and the 'senior guys mongrel', are not there in the Wallabies today (or not there with any reliability)? Are you in effect saying, to explain these absences, we just overall have a crap bunch of players that take no responsibility and need regular kicks up the arse, or what?

 

[cyclopath]

All noted above Cyclo...but why do you think more of the 1991 events you reference, and the Tom D utter dedication/80 mins of intensity, and the 'senior guys mongrel', are not there in the Wallabies today (or not there with any reliability)? Are you in effect saying, to explain these absences, we just overall have a crap bunch of players that take no responsibility and need regular kicks up the arse, or what?

I don't know, RH. It has been a long held disappointment for me that too many Wallaby players seem to lack that extra 5-10% of gut-wrenching effort when required. Too many times they look ambivalent about losing a tight Test. It may not be the case, but at times some of them look like they are just turning up for a pay-cheque.
No, they are not crap overall, but it dismays me to see players from elsewhere with no more talent who put in a whole lot more, and achieve more as a result.
They should not need a kick up the arse - that should be self-administered (in some sort of Catholic Pilates manoeuvre)!!

 

[fatprop]

It is the expectations of the seniors players and their example. Just look at Waugh for the Tahs, now he ain't the greatest 7 in the world anymore but the way he drives his team, what he expects......

It is about getting up off the ground and getting back into position, making that clean out, competing for the ball wherever possible, chasing that kick (not because you think you can get it this time, but because you want the opps to know you will be their everytime (ie Habana)) etc etc

 

[Gnostic]

My feeling is that they are now "professional". Compare that with other professions and the decline in real value seen in a lot of areas. Professionalism has IMO in many cases become a mantra to enable many to achieve what they want with maximum efficiency on their part. That is the best possible outcome they can achieve with least effort. Hence what we get in a sporting arena is the professional committing what they feel is "efficiently"enough effort to win the game and get the result they are seeking. Hence we often see the Wallabies come out run up a good lead and then get overhauled in the second half as the opposition goes past the "professional efficiency" approach and drive themselves to give that extra 10%. It is the true passion and commitment to the team that gets the extra 10%, not the professional who has gone through the motions and trained hard, completed each step required dilligently. Equate it to the bloke who stays back at work the extra hour after knock off the complete the job to the higher standard, not just the one that will past muster.

I think if they have not been able to get this culture in the group by now then it just won't happen using any methods now in use or tried before and talking about it will change nothing. We can't deny that it is part of the culture throughout the country.

 

[rsea]

I don't know, RH. It has been a long held disappointment for me that too many Wallaby players seem to lack that extra 5-10% of gut-wrenching effort when required. Too many times they look ambivalent about losing a tight Test. It may not be the case, but at times some of them look like they are just turning up for a pay-cheque.
No, they are not crap overall, but it dismays me to see players from elsewhere with no more talent who put in a whole lot more, and achieve more as a result.
They should not need a kick up the arse - that should be self-administered (in some sort of Catholic Pilates manoeuvre)!!

For years I perceived our last minute capitulations as demonstrating our "lack of heart". I've since come to realise it's not that our boys lack heart, they’re just up against hugely powerful rugby nations with immensely talented players, picked from a depth of player stocks such as we’ll never know.

Perceptions of a lack of commitment are born through seeing our guys fail repeatedly at the final hurdle in big matches but these failures are more likely the product of the oppositions capability to lift beyond the level our players. Remember the Bok & Abs all but have the pick of their countries athletes and have infinitely better domestic competitions to help hone the skills of these players. The fact that we’re even able to compete with such teams is a testament to the heart these players show.

I know all the above is a bit defeatist but perhaps saying our boys lack heart or mongrel is a bit unfair.

 

[Scarfman]

I think if they have not been able to get this culture in the group by now then it just won't happen using any methods now in use or tried before and talking about it will change nothing. We can't deny that it is part of the culture throughout the country.

Uh oh. I think we're losing him. Prepare a size 15 boot. Get those trousers down, stat! CLEAR! Another, he's not responding. CLEAR!

That's it. He's back to normal.

Careful Gnostic, you mightn't be so lucky next time to have someone around who's trained up in HTFU.

 

[daz]

I make no claim to have a reason or a solution to this malaise within the Wallaby ranks, but is it possible that the hunger for silverware has been replaced a little bit by the hunger for the dollar?

In other words, why bust a gut for the Bledisloe and risk injury when if you stay uninjured with half a name you can get the big bucks in France...?

 

[RedsHappy]

It is the expectations of the seniors players and their example. Just look at Waugh for the Tahs, now he ain't the greatest 7 in the world anymore but the way he drives his team, what he expects......It is about getting up off the ground and getting back into position, making that clean out, competing for the ball wherever possible, chasing that kick (not because you think you can get it this time, but because you want the opps to know you will be their everytime (ie Habana)) etc etc

I completely agree re on-field leadership. And I'd go further: it's very significantly because this type of, let's call it for the moment. 'the right stuff' of real, hard, super-gritty rugby leadership has been (largely) absent from elite Australian rugby for at least 5-7 years now, that we have gone backwards into relative mediocrity vs the best.

Where we probably disagree, is that I see it as a major job of the top coaches to (over time) find and appoint and ensure that 'the right stuff' (personnel and culture) is created within the senior player group and then indentured throughout the entire 22. If they need to sack 'icons' or whatever to do this, they must, as the team outcomes will _never_ be better than the standards, performance and attitudes of the captain and senior players.

 

[RedsHappy]

I make no claim to have a reason or a solution to this malaise within the Wallaby ranks, but is it possible that the hunger for silverware has been replaced a little bit by the hunger for the dollar? In other words, why bust a gut for the Bledisloe and risk injury when if you stay uninjured with half a name you can get the big bucks in France...?

daz, I definitely think there's something in this. Not the whole explanation by any means, but a factor. It is especially true if a Wallaby thinks - 'well, there's not much depth, they need me, people don't get fired much here for poor results, and I get paid more the less the same win or lose, the French are after me, they need Aussie players there, I'm safe...' It's also even more serious if whole team tone gets like this, including the senior leaders.

I am not the greatest fan of Growden, but I absolutely did agree with his proposal last year (after another dispiriting and unjustified Tris loss) that more of the Wallabies pay cheque should be performance-related. Lower the base quite a bit, big slab of $ top-up for a win, zero or a small amount for a loss. This would flush the issue out.

Finally, I was blown away the other day to find (Growden quoted) that the whole Wallabies team effectively costs $30,000,000 pa! Yeah, where is the ROI on that!?, it all comes directly or indirectly from the fans.

 

[Gnostic]

Uh oh. I think we're losing him. Prepare a size 15 boot. Get those trousers down, stat! CLEAR! Another, he's not responding. CLEAR!

That's it. He's back to normal.

Careful Gnostic, you mightn't be so lucky next time to have someone around who's trained up in HTFU.

WTF are you dribbling?

My point is that the 10% extra that the ABs in particular are able to find is purely from the desire and passion from those players. The players are not in themselves generally any better. It is the Top 4 inches that Deans likes to talk about. As it is well known I have issues with some of Deans selections but I also think the attitude of the players is at fault. They are very professional etc but just don't commit that extra that sets the ABs apart and is the reason why we haven't held the Bledisloe since 2002. Maybe an incentive based pay system whereby the players get a full match fee for a win and a reduced payment for a loss. That way the reward is comensurate with the result and may inspire their professionalism to reach that 10% others can find in the old way (ie. passion)

 

[Gnostic]

I completely agree re on-field leadership. And I'd go further: it's very significantly because this type of, let's call it for the moment. 'the right stuff' of real, hard, super-gritty rugby leadership has been (largely) absent from elite Australian rugby for at least 5-7 years now, that we have gone backwards into relative mediocrity vs the best.

Where we probably disagree, is that I see it as a major job of the top coaches to (over time) find and appoint and ensure that 'the right stuff' (personnel and culture) is created within the senior player group and then indentured throughout the entire 22. If they need to sack 'icons' or whatever to do this, they must, as the team outcomes will _never_ be better than the standards, performance and attitudes of the captain and senior players.

I agree to a certain degree with what you are saying. In fact its why I think Mitchell deserved to be dropped. Mitchell is great when he has ball in hand or chasing his own kicks. However he is lazy in chasing other people's kicks, running back to support other players and his concentration can just turn off at times, such as in the Tahs V Cheetahs game this year where he failed to field the ball twice on his own goal line and gave up the try. No matter how god he is in other areas it is those re-current failures in application that will see him get permanently dropped unless he fixes it. The problem for the coaching staff is how do you train that application. You teach correect body position for tackling, passing, catching, running lines etc. You can train for fitness, how can you teach attitude. See my "professionalism" rant. I do not question that the players do all that is asked of them at training. They give everything a professional should, the difference is that 10% the drive to punch through the pain and fatigue at the end of the game (and sometimes at the start as in Engalnd this year).

 

[Reddy!]

Total speculation: Could the reason why players aren't giving 100% all match, like Tom Donnelly, is because they know Robbie Deans doesn't use the bench, therefore they must conserve energy to play out a full game.

Just a thought, because Robbie Deans uses the bench terribly. Graham Henry on the other hand is tactically very good at it.

 

[rsea]

Total speculation: Could the reason why players aren't giving 100% all match, like Tom Donnelly, is because they know Robbie Deans doesn't use the bench, therefore they must conserve energy to play out a full game.

Just a thought, because Robbie Deans uses the bench terribly. Graham Henry on the other hand is tactically very good at it.

lol you're a nutter reddy