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Richard Graham to quit the Force and join the Reds

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todd4

Dave Cowper (27)
Therefore even if Mr. Graham is not the greatest coach now, perhaps he will grow tremendously under McKenzie's structures and guidance.

Nothing against you personally Ulrich, just using your post as an example, but there are a lot of Reds posters on here who are implying that all RG needs is some mentoring by Link to turn him into a top-line coach.

How much mentoring can one bloke have?

I quote Bruce Ross....

So what of Richard Graham, shoe-horned into the head coaching role by McKenzie? Between 2002 and 2006 he was an assistant coach at Bath under Michael Foley, then under ex-Wallabies coach John Connolly, and finally under ex-England coach Brian Ashton. He then moved on to Saracens as assistant to ex-Wallabies coach Eddie Jones, followed by a short stint as head coach. In June 2009 he came back to Australia as skills coach under current Wallabies coach Robbie Deans. Simultaneously he was assistant at the Western Force to ex-All Blacks coach John Mitchell, before taking the head role in September 2010.

Richard Graham has been under so many national coaches he must be the ultimate rugby groupie.


Reminds me of those 45y.o. uni students who have spent all their adult lives doing one course after another and one of these days they're gunna go out and......

A bit harsh maybe, apparently RG is a really nice bloke and I actually wish him well back in Qld., but it just seems like grasping at straws to think that a few magic words from Link is going to do what tutelage from all those other international coaches could not do.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
I think that's a bit of an oversimplification Todd.

The Reds aren't suggesting Graham doesn't know how to coach. It seems to be that in line with the Reds (and Link's) general mantra that this is an all-encompassing apprenticeship- including stuff like recruitment, finance, community engagement and development etc.

Because as much as RG has had plenty of on-field coaching experience, the job of Queensland head coach involves significantly more. And yes, quite a lot more than the Force head coach job.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
Playing the devils advocate. How long was the extensive international search before they employed McCall's mate Ewen?


Sent using Tapatalk on a very old phone
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I'm baffled as to why. Not one journo was able to muster the independence and honesty to ask the seminal questions on behalf of their readers: (a) when the world was there for the Reds in choosing a replacement for Link, why would you choose a coach with an ongoing poor track record in: w-l %, recruitment, technical/skills advancement and consistency of tenure? (b) why rush this and risk team uncertainty in the middle of a key 'prove it again' season for the Reds, and (c) was a world-wide search conducted for the replacement pre choosing RG?

In the best traditions of the supine, intellectually gormless Aus rugby media, the vast majority of the questions were de facto dorothy dixers and obvious speculations re the Wallabies that could be pre-guaranteed to be batted away by Link with denials.


Integrity and honour are dead in most professions. in my experience. Few will do what they say they will do and fewer have the courage to question why? Especially when they are more interested in protecting their pay check and perks.

So many people in all walks have forgotten that critical review is not an attack it is a way of improvement, in fact the most sound way to identify flaws. I had thought that the QRU had in its revolution of 2008/2009 discarded the old closed shop back room management for open professional systems. This has shown that perhaps this is not the case. The lack of anybody officially asking the hard questions and recieving more than a scripted policitical waffle in reply reinforces people's suspicion and distrust of the decisions made.

The fact that Graham is the beneficiary of this is a key cause for many concerns as he has no demonstrable positive results from any side that he has coached. If this is not correct then someone, anyone post results against this statement. Simply occupying a position gains somebody experience, it doesn't mean that they were any good at what they did.

So during the first or second Press Conferences some of the following questions should have been asked and truely answered without Gillard type evasion or her form of honesty.

1. What is the actual Function and Duties of a Coaching Director or Rugby Manager? What then does the CEO do? Why is there a need for this extra layer of bureaucracy?
2. If we accept the premise for the answer to Question 1 (whether or not that is the case) What was the process by which RG was selected? Were other candidates considered? If not why?
3. RG has not demonstrable success with any team he has been involved with. What therefore were the skills the QRU considered made him the best candidate over a very wide field of coaches even if only Australians are considered?

Unless the management is introverted and adverse to external critique, as is the case under the closed shop and back room deal style, they will not be threatened by such questions as they can strengthen their organisation. When such things are not asked we go the other way and we end up with 6 pages on GAGR largely critical and derisive of the individual and mystified at the decisions.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Playing the devils advocate. How long was the extensive international search before they employed McCall's mate Ewen?

I don't know the answer but I do know the context was wildly different: then, the QRU was in disarray, nearly bankrupt, its Reds coach had been sacked, and it was virtually the laughing stock of the rugby world. It was hardly a context where quality coaches were lining up, fascinated by its winning progress, new commercial viability and excellent player roster. McCall was rightly then acting in an emergency-like role - with little cash for anything - to save the code in QLD.
 

MrTimms

Ken Catchpole (46)
I was there, so can only assume that part of the throng that wasn't asking the tough questions was me, I though Link addressed most of these things, and I will try and summerise what I think he said to answer these questions.

So during the first or second Press Conferences some of the following questions should have been asked and truely answered without Gillard type evasion or her form of honesty.

1. What is the actual Function and Duties of a Coaching Director or Rugby Manager? What then does the CEO do? Why is there a need for this extra layer of bureaucracy?
2. If we accept the premise for the answer to Question 1 (whether or not that is the case) What was the process by which RG was selected? Were other candidates considered? If not why?
3. RG has not demonstrable success with any team he has been involved with. What therefore were the skills the QRU considered made him the best candidate over a very wide field of coaches even if only Australians are considered?

1. There will be a clear and concise set of responsibilities drawn up for the two roles. That will be done as part of the recruitment for Matt Taylor's vacated role. Once the final structure is worked out the two roles will be defined. With the quality of the coaches they are assembling, they will have the ability to structure things as required, and there is still plenty of time to bed down that structure. It does seem the essence of the differences are that the Head coach role will be the one with the team on match night and doing all the traditional tasks such as media and other administrative duties, while the director of coaching performs more of an overseeing role, with more time dedicated to executive level functions such as ensuring access to more facilities (Ballymore redevelopment) and community engagement.
2. Link says that as with players, and it is something he has been noted as saying plenty of times, personality is often more important that achievements and skill set as it has a greater effect on the culture of the organisation. Along those lines, coach recruitment is as much about "runs on the board" as it is about ensuring the right personalities and strengths balance weaknesses within the whole team. From that, Richard Graham's work has demonstrated that he gets and has similar philosophies to what the Reds are trying to do. Culturally that is just as, or perhaps more, important than pure win/loss records.
3. Link addressed that, saying that he has had a tough situation at the Force, with the obvious issues around recruitment and the difficult circumstances in Perth. Even given the what he has had to work with he has managed some good wins and with the right structures to work within provided things will come good.

I would like to stress, while people keep quoting his lack of record that perhaps that isn't everything. I understand why people get hung up on it, but in the industry I work in there are some certifications that people can get. Often the people with the most certifications are not as complete as the ones without the certifications. Any organisation that focuses purely on that measure often suffers for it. While considering this, I will just cite an example everyone should be familiar with, perhaps a coach with an impeccable record that hasn't had much success in his new role. I know that is not necessarily comparing oranges with oranges, but Robbie Deans had all the credentials, and I think the same people unhappy here also aren't happy with the success he has achieved.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...graham-defection/story-e6frg7o6-1226330727367

Interesting. As I posted after the announcement, I really do wonder what some Reds players will make of this.

Was 'loyalty' ever used by RG in the press when referring to JOC (James O'Connor)??

I remember JOC (James O'Connor) dicking them around in negotiations, but I can't remember RG ever accusing JOC (James O'Connor) of being 'disloyal'. In fact he was quite dignified in his silence about the whole thing, I remember trying to get an answer out of him on the podcast a couple of times...
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Was 'loyalty' ever used by RG in the press when referring to JOC (James O'Connor)??

I remember JOC (James O'Connor) dicking them around in negotiations, but I can't remember RG ever accusing JOC (James O'Connor) of being 'disloyal'. In fact he was quite dignified in his silence about the whole thing, I remember trying to get an answer out of him on the podcast a couple of times...

Richard Graham should fire back with a Kurtleyism and say the real reason he is moving to the Reds is because Queensland is one of his favourite countries... apart from Europe of course.
 

MrTimms

Ken Catchpole (46)
Was 'loyalty' ever used by RG in the press when referring to JOC (James O'Connor)??

I remember JOC (James O'Connor) dicking them around in negotiations, but I can't remember RG ever accusing JOC (James O'Connor) of being 'disloyal'. In fact he was quite dignified in his silence about the whole thing, I remember trying to get an answer out of him on the podcast a couple of times...

I remember that too, I didn't think he ever said it.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Timsy did you ask questions ? If not why not? I can accept that such things didn't occur to you straight away as the shock of this settled in.

1. When you create a position it is customary to actually have a statement of duties and resposnibilities before you create it. Otherwise it is a superfluous position and isn't really required and they just make it up as they go along.
2. Personality is a qualification just like anything else and many places use profiling techniques to ensure that candidates are the best fit. It doesn't answer the question though. It avoids it neatly. What was the process and were other candidates considered?
3. RG has obviously had a tough run at every club so I suppose the Reds should expect a tough run from here on in. The Force have had wins like it has this year since the team's inception. The lack of consistancy in results but also in basic skill level is what is missing. Indeed I don't think RG could be fully judged on the Force results to at least the end of this season.

You can stress his lack of record as not being everything, but sooner or later to quote Scarfy, the time comes to "shit or get off the pot". A certification is a good starting point for an interview/ selection process but demonstrated ability is in most productive professions regarded as far more important. Indeed with the move to "professionalising" the old trades skills and abilites are recognised by the granting of certificates of competency. You can get these through study but most are gained by actually doing the job and to do that you must achieve the goals. Many are arguing that it is the deomnstration part that is missing in RGs qualifications. Again this could be totally defused if somebody asked and a complete non-evasive answer given to question 2.

RG hasn't been given a club spot here he is at the pinnacle of Aust. Provincial coaching with NO actual results on the board. Yes he would have held the same level (IMO) if he stayed at the Force, but the fact is that unless question 2 was actually answered it appears that RG was head hunted for an extremely advantaged position on the basis of what? If we had seen a Brumbies like turn around in application and play that we have seen in them under White I could say 'OK, I don't agree with it but there are some results.'
 

todd4

Dave Cowper (27)
I think that's a bit of an oversimplification Todd.

The Reds aren't suggesting Graham doesn't know how to coach. It seems to be that in line with the Reds (and Link's) general mantra that this is an all-encompassing apprenticeship- including stuff like recruitment, finance, community engagement and development etc.

Because as much as RG has had plenty of on-field coaching experience, the job of Queensland head coach involves significantly more. And yes, quite a lot more than the Force head coach job.

You're probably right Barbarian it was oversimplified but I'll admit that I'm not an expert on all things rugby, just a fan posting a comment.

While I'm here I'll make another comment, and some of the more knowledgable posters
may pull it apart but if it generates discussion, well & good.

With the Reds new coaching set-up I doubt that they will ever attract a truely top-line coach as the Reds 'head coach'. Would someone like Graham Henry or Jake White accept a head coach position knowing that they would be answerable to a coach 'above them'?.
Any self-respecting international level coach will want total control of the coaching set-up (like Jake White with the Brumbies) .

I'm thinking the Reds have thought this through and realised that the 'head coach' position needs to be filled by a coach who is an 'up & comer' a level or two below the director who is therefore maleable and agreeable to take direction.

When Link leaves the Qld Reds I imagine they would then look for an internation coach at the level of GH or JW to fill the directors shoes.

This whole thing is a win-win for Link. If the Reds fuck-up the finger will be pointed at RG, if they win another title next year Link will be the genius who mentored RG.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Even after a couple of days, all I feel on this is.
The man who has been at the helm of QLD for 2 1/2 years, who is supposed to be the next wallaby coach, the guy who is meant to have the answers, isn't going to be coaching a team anymore.

He is going to be out of coaching fir at least a year, over the last couple it was always his ability to communicate with the players, to get more out of them, to develop them. If he us niw saying this is th better way to do so, how can he claim he should be wallaby coach?
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I see the Wallaby coach a bit more of a director of coaching role. The specialist coaches run their programs and the Wob coach facilitates and leads and maybe runs one of the areas.
 

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
Big Kev gets proactive about the nuances

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...per-rugby-champs/story-fn8t7efs-1226330692160

WATCHING the Reds endure messy splits from former coaches Jeff Miller, Eddie Jones and Phil Mooney has made skipper James Horwill appreciate what well-planned coaching moves can do for Queensland rugby.

Horwill said yesterday that his overwhelming reaction to the Reds' surprise coaching shake-up is that the team is getting an extra high-quality mentor, not losing one.
We're not losing a son; we're gaining a daughter-in-law.
Reds coach Ewen McKenzie broke the news to captain Horwill and vice-captain Will Genia at one-on-one meetings on Monday before announcing to the team that he would be moving into a director of coaching role in 2013 when Richard Graham will become head coach.

"After the initial surprise, I think it made sense to them because it's rare that a team gets to plan ahead and actually be proactive," McKenzie said.
Aways quick on the uptake Captain Kev was soon singing off the very same song sheet:
"This is one of the few times I can recall a rugby team being proactive around a coach."
I may be missing something here but thus far the only scope for the "team being proactive around [the] coach" would have been for them to roar in unison: "Yes coach!" when the news was conveyed to them.
The Wallaby captain has also spent time discussing how it will work with younger members of the Reds' squad who are less familiar with the nuances of such moves.
Reportedly one first-year Red had sidled up to his captain and said: "Kev, I sort of get what Link was on about but can you tell us about the nuances?" Another one chimed in: "Yeah; what he said." So Big Kev got all the players to form up in a group hug while he explained the nuances and how lucky they were to be in a team which had been given the privilege to be proactive around the coach.

Some of the players walked away scratching their heads - and not a few their balls - but they were happy just knowing that Kev seemed to know all about the nuances.

A weedy little winger turned to a front-rower and said: "What is a nuance anyway." The big prop cuffed him about the ears before replying: "Shut up or he'll get us back for another group hug."

Graham ... said he would avoid conflicts of interests by leaving McKenzie to put together Queensland's player roster for 2013.

"Ewen is a long way down that path, and whilst I am here, he will continue controlling that aspect of the organisation. He has done a good job so far," Graham said.

I'll bet that when Link read that he couldn't wait to get to a computer to add a new line to his CV: "My sidekick reckons I've 'done a good job so far.'"
.
 
M

Moono75

Guest
Lot of the talk seems to be centred on the Reds in this discussion. While Vern Reid has said they will keep RG in place for the season I will be interested to see the outcome of Thursday's Force players meeting. RG may be on his way to Queensland a lot sooner than expected.
 
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