Reds v Stormers - Super Rugby Round 9, 2012
- Thread starter Tangawizi
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twenty seven
Tom Lawton (22)
IMO - it is not how much the Reds are kicking but as to the kicks themselves. The choice of placement was poor. We are missing a tactical kicker with good placement.
Genia looks tired.
We played too much as individuals at the start of the game.
Simmons is still protecting one side/shoulder.
WHAT the hell was Beau doing kicking??
Kev was huge - big game.
Agree with cyclopath - Higginbotham needed to play tighter at times.
Genia looks tired.
We played too much as individuals at the start of the game.
Simmons is still protecting one side/shoulder.
WHAT the hell was Beau doing kicking??
Kev was huge - big game.
Agree with cyclopath - Higginbotham needed to play tighter at times.
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Once again their pack is full strength..
They looked better in the second half when they were getting the ball quickly away from contact and were dropping attackers in cutting tackles, something the Reds did really well last season and individually they had their moments. The Reds forwards could not keep the pressure on, they are just too one out too often as they tried to use the high tempo game
I thought the Stormers forwards were never really troubled. The Stormers and a lot of others now don't try for a low tackle, they want to hold the attacker up and slow the ball. The Stormers were composed and worked as a unit.
The challenge for the Reds is that the game has moved on and there is more of a battle allowed at each contact this season and the Stormers just waited for the one out unit and either slowed or turned over the ball.
Just like the Tahs last season, attacking threat gone, pigs still there, although the Tahs lost both their hookers as well
spectator
Bob Davidson (42)
Dear, oh fuc@#¥g dear! For a myriad of reasons, most already given, this is turning out to be an annus horribilus for the Reds. Losing Lane and Taps (in particular) in the first 10 minutes meant that the Reds attack was well and truly screwed. Could not understand a lot of the tactics during the game ( aargh the kicking!) but it was always going to be a struggle to get a cohesive attack going and put points on the board.
Well done Stormers. Even with some key injuries the execution of their gameplay was admirable. This team may well go all the way.
Well done Stormers. Even with some key injuries the execution of their gameplay was admirable. This team may well go all the way.
Paddysboy
Stan Wickham (3)
The challenge for the Reds is that the game has moved on and there is more of a battle allowed at each contact this season and the Stormers just waited for the one out unit and either slowed or turned over the ball.[/quote]
FP I think you make a good point. Also it feels like all the energy and intensity the Reds had in buckets last year (generally at least), has been picked up by other teams and the Res have lost their mojo big time. The Reds, certainly in the first half, waited for the game to come to them instead of getting on with it and setting the tempo. It seemed like it had been so long since they have had any cohesion, they couldn't remember what to do, so they kicked it away and let the other team decide. Confidence was absent. At least they had a crack in the 2nd half but you can't give the Stoners a 17 point start and win the game.
The first 40 was very hard to watch for a Reds fan.
FP I think you make a good point. Also it feels like all the energy and intensity the Reds had in buckets last year (generally at least), has been picked up by other teams and the Res have lost their mojo big time. The Reds, certainly in the first half, waited for the game to come to them instead of getting on with it and setting the tempo. It seemed like it had been so long since they have had any cohesion, they couldn't remember what to do, so they kicked it away and let the other team decide. Confidence was absent. At least they had a crack in the 2nd half but you can't give the Stoners a 17 point start and win the game.
The first 40 was very hard to watch for a Reds fan.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Well the Reds played better in the second half and actually got off the line in defence and were more aggressive in all contact situations. That was the good.
The poor:-
Key defensive players like Beau Robinson are just not performing to their usual standard (last year) this year. Robinson's work rate remains high but he is falling off a significant number of tackles or is passive in the completion and the ball carrier is well past the gain line before completion. He isn't the only one just the most notable for me because of the standard he set last year.
Skills execution especially kicking from hand. This is my biggest problem with the Tahs. Poor journalism or worse poor understanding of Rugby has pushed a line with many that any kicking is bad and a high number of kicks leads to a bad game. A good kicking game is an essential facet to a good Rugby side and all great Rugby teams have had a very effective kicking game, no better argument can be given for effective kicking than the Brumbies of 2011 who didn't or rarely kicked except under huge pressure. The Reds kicking from hand is in general poor. I counted in excess of 10 occassion last night where they gifted possession to the Stormers by poor kicks that were never in danger of either gaining territory, or being effectively pressured by a Reds player. Given the lack of ball the Reds had in the first 40 that is just unsustainable. This particular facet is perhaps the most startling change from the Reds of 2011, they went from being one of the best kicking teams in the comp. to being very average on the same level as the Tahs. Excuses can be made such as the injuries to 10s but the fact is so many of the kicks are not executed by the player at 10, they are from 15, wings or half back.
Defensive structures. I cannot say for certainty if it is the key players falling off or being dominated in the tackle area that is the cause but the system which worked so well last year is full of holes this year. Where to for the Reds, they are clearly struggling and a rest for a few players like Robinson may well be called for. Perhaps this illustrates the defensive value of high impact high, workrate defensive players like the Fainga'a brothers. The Reds cannot continue as they have been that is for sure, if they are to have any hope of defending their title.
The poor:-
Key defensive players like Beau Robinson are just not performing to their usual standard (last year) this year. Robinson's work rate remains high but he is falling off a significant number of tackles or is passive in the completion and the ball carrier is well past the gain line before completion. He isn't the only one just the most notable for me because of the standard he set last year.
Skills execution especially kicking from hand. This is my biggest problem with the Tahs. Poor journalism or worse poor understanding of Rugby has pushed a line with many that any kicking is bad and a high number of kicks leads to a bad game. A good kicking game is an essential facet to a good Rugby side and all great Rugby teams have had a very effective kicking game, no better argument can be given for effective kicking than the Brumbies of 2011 who didn't or rarely kicked except under huge pressure. The Reds kicking from hand is in general poor. I counted in excess of 10 occassion last night where they gifted possession to the Stormers by poor kicks that were never in danger of either gaining territory, or being effectively pressured by a Reds player. Given the lack of ball the Reds had in the first 40 that is just unsustainable. This particular facet is perhaps the most startling change from the Reds of 2011, they went from being one of the best kicking teams in the comp. to being very average on the same level as the Tahs. Excuses can be made such as the injuries to 10s but the fact is so many of the kicks are not executed by the player at 10, they are from 15, wings or half back.
Defensive structures. I cannot say for certainty if it is the key players falling off or being dominated in the tackle area that is the cause but the system which worked so well last year is full of holes this year. Where to for the Reds, they are clearly struggling and a rest for a few players like Robinson may well be called for. Perhaps this illustrates the defensive value of high impact high, workrate defensive players like the Fainga'a brothers. The Reds cannot continue as they have been that is for sure, if they are to have any hope of defending their title.
Ruggo
Mark Ella (57)
Congratulations PB on the Stormers win. They reminded me of the Reds last year in how well they used the width of the field and how organised they were with ball in hand. Not great when they do it to the team you love but you just got to take your hat off to quallity rugby like that. I have really come to enjoy watching the Stormers play.
A bit dipressing for the Reds but not all bad. Lady luck was cruel to us with the early loss of Lane and Taps but Shipperley held his own really well in the unfamiliar outside centre position. Great to see Harris and Lucas survive much more game time than would of been intended. I think our set piece held up really well against a side that has been dominant more often than not.
Genia is a problem. He should not be immune to being dropped and maybe it is time for Frisby to be given his chance. Genia really needs to focus on his own game. We get Digby back and depending on when Ant is back he might have to play some 13. We have been missing that punch he adds.
Samo is at the stage where he just needs to be used as an impact player. I just don't think he does enough to be starting 15 material.
The Reds will bounce back and we are still well within striking distance. All is not lost for 2012 season.
A bit dipressing for the Reds but not all bad. Lady luck was cruel to us with the early loss of Lane and Taps but Shipperley held his own really well in the unfamiliar outside centre position. Great to see Harris and Lucas survive much more game time than would of been intended. I think our set piece held up really well against a side that has been dominant more often than not.
Genia is a problem. He should not be immune to being dropped and maybe it is time for Frisby to be given his chance. Genia really needs to focus on his own game. We get Digby back and depending on when Ant is back he might have to play some 13. We have been missing that punch he adds.
Samo is at the stage where he just needs to be used as an impact player. I just don't think he does enough to be starting 15 material.
The Reds will bounce back and we are still well within striking distance. All is not lost for 2012 season.
biggsy
Chilla Wilson (44)
I will go along way before I agree with a Tah supporter. And this is the one case I agree.... Need the attacking back line which the Reds dont have, so what gwerty51 is saying means nothing really. You can have the best forward pack but if your back line cant attack or break the line. Your in for a frustrating game and tired forward running to ruck to ruck with no meters gained.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
Except for Genia there is probably only one other first choice back that finished that game. Very hard to find consistency of performances when changes occur not just every week but multiple times within games. The most settled back line we have had all season was the one putting the sharks to the sword in the first 30 minutes of that game. In saying that, the overriding problems seem to be 1) attitude - we can never seem to come out firing (excluding the aforementioned game) and 2) simple ball security.
Interesting also to note that it was Lucas doing a lot of the talking in the post game huddle. I guess he is the only back in his mid 20s!
Interesting also to note that it was Lucas doing a lot of the talking in the post game huddle. I guess he is the only back in his mid 20s!
Sandpit Fan
Nev Cottrell (35)
Looks like the reverse underdog tricked worked PB. Congrats - Good win for the Stormers - we certainly didn't do enough in that game for the result to be any different.
What had me screaming at the TV (along with plenty of others here) was the blind stupidity of the Reds kicking. The Stormers couldn't buy a lineout win on their own throw - so what do we do instead of kicking for touch deep in their territory and putting pressure on their lineout - pop up worthless up & unders from everywhere, and get hosed on the kick return. FFS - you would see a better strategic grasp in subbies games.
That much was obvious in the first half - surely "the Wallaby coach in waiting" (tm) would have been astute enough to notice it and mention something at half time.
And what was going on at ruck & maul time? After that Stormers kick out on the full near their own line, the ball was kicking around at the base of the ruck for about 10 seconds, and no one even looked like thinking of picking it up.
Overall, very disappointing, and even worse when you consider we didn't even look like scoring a try. Until the Stormers gifted us that one from the lineout, we managed to butcher any other chances while still 30+m away, other than Simmons loosing it over the line.
Genia needs some quality bench time, if he doesn't like it, then it might give him the kick up the arse which seems to be needed at the moment. I'd have White & McKibbin ahead of him at the moment on form.
Now back to recovering from the hangover induced by trying to blot that game from memory...
What had me screaming at the TV (along with plenty of others here) was the blind stupidity of the Reds kicking. The Stormers couldn't buy a lineout win on their own throw - so what do we do instead of kicking for touch deep in their territory and putting pressure on their lineout - pop up worthless up & unders from everywhere, and get hosed on the kick return. FFS - you would see a better strategic grasp in subbies games.
That much was obvious in the first half - surely "the Wallaby coach in waiting" (tm) would have been astute enough to notice it and mention something at half time.
And what was going on at ruck & maul time? After that Stormers kick out on the full near their own line, the ball was kicking around at the base of the ruck for about 10 seconds, and no one even looked like thinking of picking it up.
Overall, very disappointing, and even worse when you consider we didn't even look like scoring a try. Until the Stormers gifted us that one from the lineout, we managed to butcher any other chances while still 30+m away, other than Simmons loosing it over the line.
Genia needs some quality bench time, if he doesn't like it, then it might give him the kick up the arse which seems to be needed at the moment. I'd have White & McKibbin ahead of him at the moment on form.
Now back to recovering from the hangover induced by trying to blot that game from memory...
twenty seven
Tom Lawton (22)
I believe that it is not bench time Genia requires.
He played an outstanding season for the Reds last year, pairing with Quade well, as well as working well with Digby and Horwill.
He also worked extremely hard for the Wallabies at the world cup. Don't forget a lot of these blokes do a lot of off field work as well.
Then he took goodwill home and worked promoting the game there.
It isn't that he isn't trying, I feel that he is working a bit of the back foot too much and thats not just because of the forwards, there seems to be a bit of spark missing with some of the backs. A lot of this could have to do with the injuries that a have affected so much of our back line!! He has to drop back deep to try and give us a kicking option then get to the front line to take control of the attack.
Rest is what Genia seems to need and, dare I say, Quade back.
He played an outstanding season for the Reds last year, pairing with Quade well, as well as working well with Digby and Horwill.
He also worked extremely hard for the Wallabies at the world cup. Don't forget a lot of these blokes do a lot of off field work as well.
Then he took goodwill home and worked promoting the game there.
It isn't that he isn't trying, I feel that he is working a bit of the back foot too much and thats not just because of the forwards, there seems to be a bit of spark missing with some of the backs. A lot of this could have to do with the injuries that a have affected so much of our back line!! He has to drop back deep to try and give us a kicking option then get to the front line to take control of the attack.
Rest is what Genia seems to need and, dare I say, Quade back.
tigerland12
John Thornett (49)
I'm still fumming about that first half. Not taking anything away from the Stormers who were brilliant as usuall, and will surley be in the final and probably win it.
But I think that we need to stop making excuses. Oh injuries, big deal everyone has them. Oh we did some things right, oh he played well last year. This is now Round 9, time to shape up.
Here is my analysis of the Reds by position
For next week this is the side I'd like to see, assuming Wallace-Harrison, Fainga'a, Ioane and Toua are available.
1- Daley
2- Hanson
3- Slipper
4- Van Humphries
5- Horwill
6- Higginbotham
7- Gill
8- Shatz
9- Frisby
10- Lucas
11- Ioane
12- Harris
13- Fainga'a
14- Shipperely
15- Toua
Bench: Anae, Holmes, Wallace-Harrison, Quirk/Robinson, Genia, Davies, Morahan/Robinson
I would personally prefer a 4:3 split, Gill is an 80 minute player, meaning Quirk/Robinson can come on for Shatz. Genia needs to be dropped, you cannot keep performing that poorly and retain your spot, plus Frisby is a promising young player. I'm not sure if Toua will be available, does anyone have any idea how serious his injury is? If he is available he should come in for Morahan. If Fainga'a isn't fit then Ioane/Shipperely to outside center and Davies to the vacant wing.
I know alot of you will say I'm being too harsh, but we cannot keep turning out poor performances, and players arent performing and they shouldnt be kept there on repuation.
But I think that we need to stop making excuses. Oh injuries, big deal everyone has them. Oh we did some things right, oh he played well last year. This is now Round 9, time to shape up.
Here is my analysis of the Reds by position
- Front Row: Suprisingly solid at scrum time. Although their work rates didn't seem to stand out to me, but I haven't seen the replay yet so they may of done alot of in tight work. Daley actually had a good game, hopefully he can continue to find form.
- Second Row: Big Kev played his best game of the year, great to see him belting rucks and running hard again. Simmons on the other hand is just there to take up space, he has no impact whatsoever. Bring in Wallace Harrison or Humphries into the starting side.
- Backrow: Higginbotham was solid without having the impact he usually does, but we can't expect that from him 8 games in a row. Robinson has been disapointing, not playing like he did last year. Gill was brilliant when he came on, bringing me back to my arguement from a few days ago but WHY IS HE NOT STARTING EVERY WEEK? Onto Samo, wasted his opportunity, was lazy, and had no impact, will be lucky to warm the bench for the rest of the season. Shatzie was good when he came on.
- Genia, another poor performance. His kicking game is shithouse, he missed tackles, poor decision making, got caught not knowing what to do alot of the time. Many say oh its hard for him without a usuall 10 next to him, bullshit, a player of his quality should be able to adapt and this season he hasn't.
- Lucas, made a few good tackles, shifted the ball with intent. Solid performance. Condolences to young Sam Lane, he will still pick up a contract next year.
- Harris, similar to Lucas, did a few solid runs, nothing special though.
- Shipperely was solid when he was moved to center, strong running and ability to make the advantage line is valuable. Needs to be put in open space more often.
- Davies was lost as usuall, and that drop ball was a game changer imo. If Toua and Sautia were fit he would be out of the side quicksmart.
- Morahan was shocking, for a player who had great attacking qualities last season he has failed to show anything this year, and has become too kick happy. A couple of smart attacking runs is not enough to make up for another poor performance.
For next week this is the side I'd like to see, assuming Wallace-Harrison, Fainga'a, Ioane and Toua are available.
1- Daley
2- Hanson
3- Slipper
4- Van Humphries
5- Horwill
6- Higginbotham
7- Gill
8- Shatz
9- Frisby
10- Lucas
11- Ioane
12- Harris
13- Fainga'a
14- Shipperely
15- Toua
Bench: Anae, Holmes, Wallace-Harrison, Quirk/Robinson, Genia, Davies, Morahan/Robinson
I would personally prefer a 4:3 split, Gill is an 80 minute player, meaning Quirk/Robinson can come on for Shatz. Genia needs to be dropped, you cannot keep performing that poorly and retain your spot, plus Frisby is a promising young player. I'm not sure if Toua will be available, does anyone have any idea how serious his injury is? If he is available he should come in for Morahan. If Fainga'a isn't fit then Ioane/Shipperely to outside center and Davies to the vacant wing.
I know alot of you will say I'm being too harsh, but we cannot keep turning out poor performances, and players arent performing and they shouldnt be kept there on repuation.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
No rant here. Can't blame injured players for missed tackles. They don't get the opportunity to make the tackles in the first place.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
Just make sure that medical, life insurance, and income replacement are covered in the contract.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
You must have been sitting near me. Painful and all....
P
potjiekos
Guest
A tad bit late... I know, but hard-luck to the 'Reds Faithful'... Back to the drawing board I reckon.
Bit disappointed in the Reds' showing though. I expected so much more from them. While I love my beloved Stormers, I love a good rugby contest more.
IMHO, it is evident that the Reds Class of 2012, in the absence of their inspirational pivot QC (Quade Cooper) (manlove aside!), have no clear-cut gameplan. This inturn gives rise to the level of indecisiveness that was on display in this match.
The mindless kicks out of hand, lack of urgency at the breakdown / cohesion and continuity between the forwards and the backs, as well as a virtually non-existent attacking set-piece in open play is fast becoming a trait of the current crop.
Genia's showing was disappointing to say the least. Gone was that hungry (I'm -having-your-kids-for-dinner) glare of the past; in its place, just a vacant (what-f*ck-am-I-doing-here) expression! Case in point being, when the Reds were awarded a penalty with about 5 or 6 mins to go... Dallying about for a few, then choosing to go for a three pointer, instead of trying to find touch for an offensive lineout on the Stormers tryline!
Players such as Genia and Samo are running on fumes, even before the game has started and clearly is in need of rest or reconditioning, and in this regard Link should seriously think about foregoing the 2012 comp as a contest and concentrate on ''blooding'' youngsters into the team to ensure the continued success of the franchise!
Just my two bobs worth.....
Bit disappointed in the Reds' showing though. I expected so much more from them. While I love my beloved Stormers, I love a good rugby contest more.
IMHO, it is evident that the Reds Class of 2012, in the absence of their inspirational pivot QC (Quade Cooper) (manlove aside!), have no clear-cut gameplan. This inturn gives rise to the level of indecisiveness that was on display in this match.
The mindless kicks out of hand, lack of urgency at the breakdown / cohesion and continuity between the forwards and the backs, as well as a virtually non-existent attacking set-piece in open play is fast becoming a trait of the current crop.
Genia's showing was disappointing to say the least. Gone was that hungry (I'm -having-your-kids-for-dinner) glare of the past; in its place, just a vacant (what-f*ck-am-I-doing-here) expression! Case in point being, when the Reds were awarded a penalty with about 5 or 6 mins to go... Dallying about for a few, then choosing to go for a three pointer, instead of trying to find touch for an offensive lineout on the Stormers tryline!
Players such as Genia and Samo are running on fumes, even before the game has started and clearly is in need of rest or reconditioning, and in this regard Link should seriously think about foregoing the 2012 comp as a contest and concentrate on ''blooding'' youngsters into the team to ensure the continued success of the franchise!
Just my two bobs worth.....
L
laps
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