Reds V Hurricanes, Round 12, 14 May 2016

[Braveheart81]

Funny how different people see things. I think Moore is in careet best form.

His ball running this season is easily better than I've ever seen it.

His propensity to bust through tackles is fantastic and not something I ever associated with him previously.

To contrast, last season it seemed like his ball running was really ineffective and he was going to ground intentionally with contact which put pressure on us to retain the ball at the breakdown.

 

[Simon.]

Holmes' workrate has been immense the last two games for an old prop. Look at him, up there at number 4 in total rucks, putting all those 80+ minute playing backrowers to shame!

He's way up there on tackles too, 7 made, none missed. The only Reds who made more were McIntyre (8 made, 4 missed) and Gill (12 made, 3 missed) and they were both on for the full 86m.

And all this while pantsing opposition looseheads in the scrum. Even though we didn't get as many penalties as usual, we were still nearly always the scrum going forward. We're going to miss him next year.

 

[TOCC]

Yes, because the CIHC's CVs are stacked with Super Rugby coaching experience, with proven records of success in Super Rugby.wait, what?

In actual fact all the keyboard warriors had the same level of Super Rugby coaching exp. before the season!! And halfway through, there still even in terms of success!

Super Rugby is a different game to the NH crap that MOC couldn't even get right.. and NS is proven at NRC which means he doesnt have to play NZ/SA sides. Selections of players with skillsets like JM will never be successful in Super Rugby. Period.

Waterboy, out of curiosity aren't you in some way related or friends with Greene? Could this link also be contributing to you negative opinion of MOC due to him continually selecting McIntyre over Greene?

 

[Scrubber2050]

Waterboy, out of curiosity aren't you in some way related or friends with Greene? Could this link also be contributing to you negative opinion of MOC due to him continually selecting McIntyre over Greene?

Shit most reasonable Reds supporters would think MOC has done a shit job. Whether he picks Greene or not (and he should have been given his shot weeks ago because the Jake just hasn't improved (sufficiently) after 10 or 11 starts) he just hasn't been able to inspire any backs out there. Skill level also seems low to me.

I understand the "cattle" argument but good and excellent coaches are able to lift players from a lower level to a higher one. This hasn't happened.

 

[Waterboyrugby]

Waterboy, out of curiosity aren't you in some way related or friends with Greene? Could this link also be contributing to you negative opinion of MOC due to him continually selecting McIntyre over Greene?

Yes I have bias towards Greene. However I believe the continual selection of McIntyre is part of a wider issue in the Reds and Australian rugby setup, which is a risk adverse mindset and over-reliance on structure in the gameplan (especially at the Reds). This then breeds unimaginative gameplay, inability to read and react to what is in front of you, and an overall skill reduction across the playing group.

Specifically at the Reds, the continual mindless kicking away of possession is, I believe, under instruction, partly because the Reds have no ability to play phases and go forward, and partly because the coaches want to avoid mistakes. Which means they will never be a good attacking team because they can't improve this crucial area of the game.

McIntyre has shown improvement in his game no doubt, minimising the errors he was making early this season, however he either a) has no vision and attacking ability or b) is being told to reign in all natural playmaking instincts.

It is so frustrating to watch this unfold because I believe this will never be successful, and you are settling for mediocrity. And at 2-1-8 you are below average.

The best Australian side at playing structure is the Brumbies. They will beat all the Aussie sides because they do this the best. As soon as the come up against good NZ sides in form, they get blown of the park. (See Chiefs and Crusaders).

Coaches like Ewen McKenzie and Chieka shown the blueprint to Super Rugby success but time and time again the Aussie system throws up guys like Michael Foley, Richard Graham and now Matt O'Connor that don't get it, and have selection policies that reflect that.

 

[gel]

A good, thought provoking response. I don't know if McIntyre is fully at fault, or that Greene replacing him would be the way to go. But the structure thing is pretty obvious.

 

[Simon.]

Yes it's pretty hard to argue with any of that. The Reds play a ponderous, predictable brand of attacking rugby these days totally at odds to how they played under Link, and it's telling that their best attacking player is Kerevi, whose style is more about being a human battering ram and slamming his way through rather than 2011 model emphasising smart running and use of lines and space. They are occasionally dangerous off rehearsed plays off the set piece but rarely outside of that.

I was hoping that NRC would help with this problem across all the Aussie teams, because the NRC rules encourage more unstructured play - more quick taps from penalties, more running and less emphasis on defence, because scoring tries is all important.

Unfortunately it didn't last once they got back to their Super team structures. I may have to hand in my Queenslander card for saying this, but I'm cheering for the Tahs to do well under Gibson, because I think we need more strong-willed Kiwi coaches here who can weather the inevitable culture clash that ensues when a Kiwi gets dropped into an Australian setup, and actually stick with it long enough to impose their style of game on the players. Gibson was certainly starting to cop some flak but seems to have started to turn it around just in time.

 

[TOCC]

Yes I have bias towards Greene. However I believe the continual selection of McIntyre is part of a wider issue in the Reds and Australian rugby setup, which is a risk adverse mindset and over-reliance on structure in the gameplan (especially at the Reds). This then breeds unimaginative gameplay, inability to read and react to what is in front of you, and an overall skill reduction across the playing group.

Specifically at the Reds, the continual mindless kicking away of possession is, I believe, under instruction, partly because the Reds have no ability to play phases and go forward, and partly because the coaches want to avoid mistakes. Which means they will never be a good attacking team because they can't improve this crucial area of the game.

McIntyre has shown improvement in his game no doubt, minimising the errors he was making early this season, however he either a) has no vision and attacking ability or b) is being told to reign in all natural playmaking instincts.

It is so frustrating to watch this unfold because I believe this will never be successful, and you are settling for mediocrity. And at 2-1-8 you are below average.

The best Australian side at playing structure is the Brumbies. They will beat all the Aussie sides because they do this the best. As soon as the come up against good NZ sides in form, they get blown of the park. (See Chiefs and Crusaders).

Coaches like Ewen McKenzie and Chieka shown the blueprint to Super Rugby success but time and time again the Aussie system throws up guys like Michael Foley, Richard Graham and now Matt O'Connor that don't get it, and have selection policies that reflect that.

Fair points there's plenty wrong with the Reds at the moment but I find it hard to identify whether it's a player or coaching issue or combination of both.

In relation to one of your previous comments, do you really believe that McIntyre has no place in Super Rugby and would Greene do any better given all of the structural and coaching issues that you have mentioned?

 

[Braveheart81]

It seems to me a classic case of preferring the guy who hasn't had a chance to fail yet.

It would seem to me like it is time to give Greene a chance but I wouldn't be expecting anything dramatically different.

I think just as much of the problems are a lack of options being offered by the players around the 10.

The lack of variation in terms of who is at first receiver is also a major issue. There is just no differentiation between phases and options.

 

[Sully]

I think if Greene had shown anything that McIntyre hasn't brought then we would have seen him start before now.

 

[Lindommer]

But he hasn't started. I'm a firm believer in the old "suck it 'n' see" approach to a lotta things in life. As they say about the Territory, "if you never never go you'll never never know". Fer Gawdsake, I've even been to Brisbane......

Greene deserves two starting matches to see if he's any better. At the very least it's insurance for injuries.

 

[Waterboyrugby]

In relation to one of your previous comments, do you really believe that McIntyre has no place in Super Rugby and would Greene do any better given all of the structural and coaching issues that you have mentioned?

I didn't say he has no place, I said he won't be successful. Big difference. I haven't seen McIntyre do anything with ball in hand that the top 10's in Super rugby do. How many line breaks has he laid on? How many defenders has he beaten? Can he create space? Can he create anything?

Greene has a running game and speed, McIntyre doesn't. That alone offers more. In short, the NRC showed that the better all round 10 was Greene. The teams were not even, and City as a whole was vastly superior and it showed, however they asked their 10 to take a backseat, shovel the ball and watch, which is not going to work in Super Rugby.

I do believe if given the chance to start 11 games, he would've done better but also provided something more in attack, a real threat with the ball. He has the higher ceiling IMO. It wouldn't fix all the issues the Reds have, of course not, but the Reds were forced to play a rookie as there was no experienced option. They had nothing to lose and even after 8 losses they still won't take a risk, they struggle to score tries and need to see what else they have. Greene has not started 1 game (including trials).

 

[Scrubber2050]

The only way that the McIntyre / Greene thing will be sorted is if Greene gets some starts.


Obviously the coaches thought McIntyre better at the beginning and that is why he has started (and that is fair enough)

But in 11 games he has improved little (if at all ).

It just seems that MOC and Stiles are not prepared to give the other bloke a shot (and as a result show that their original decision was flawed). Says a lot about the coaches.

 

[TOCC]

I didn't say he has no place, I said he won't be successful. Big difference. I haven't seen McIntyre do anything with ball in hand that the top 10's in Super rugby do. How many line breaks has he laid on? How many defenders has he beaten? Can he create space? Can he create anything?

But aren't many of these criticisms of McIntyre that you have a byproduct of the issues in coaching which you also highlighted, you have identified that MOC is a rubbish attack coach and coaching with poor attacking structure, when you talk line breaks and defenders beaten is that not a reflection of the coaching structure not just the player..

If MOC is really as bad as you say he is, the question needs to be asked is McIntyre really displaying his true ability given the poor coaching?

 

[Scrubber2050]

Talent shines eventually and sometimes, even if the coaching is poor.

I really thought, despite some errors blah blah that he looked the goods early on. Thought he would "grow" into the position with a little experience.

The lad has not really shown much at all despite 11 odd starts.

Is Super Rugby a bit out of his league?

 

[Waterboyrugby]

But aren't many of these criticisms of McIntyre that you have a byproduct of the issues in coaching which you also highlighted, you have identified that MOC is a rubbish attack coach and coaching with poor attacking structure, when you talk line breaks and defenders beaten is that not a reflection of the coaching structure not just the player..

If MOC is really as bad as you say he is, the question needs to be asked is McIntyre really displaying his true ability given the poor coaching?

I don't believe McIntyre's displays are any different to what was on show in the NRC, even in a successful team. It was much easier to carry him at that level on the back of Frisby & Kerevi and no one seemed to notice it.

So to answer your question I don't think it is all down to poor structure. I think coaching may help, but unless you have Stephen Larkham lined up for a transfer, you will be hard pressed to find a suitable coach that understands the position inside and out & has an attacking gameplan to suit.

This is all redundant talk you know. Jake was RG's guy and is now MOC's. I think some of you give too much benefit of the doubt to the Coaches because 'they'd know better, they are on the inside'. Well guess what? The inside is proven to be rife with politics and bad decisions at the Reds. The results are proof that whatever they are thinking is wrong. It doesn't work and they can't/won't adapt.

Reds will not be competitive any time soon. Losing Gill next year will absolutely have a devastating effect. The Hunt experiment will draw to a close with no return on a significant investment (compared to say Folau). Kerevi will be the standout player but under utilised. Reds recruitment will continue to overpay for league players and 'big' names that will flop in a set piece orientated gameplan. The narrative is stale and predictable, much like a Reds game these days.

I think that it is crucial for the Reds to bring in a fresh coach who wants to play an attractive brand of rugby otherwise this BS will continue. No one pays to watch guys pack a scrum, and if you do, your an idiot.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I don't believe McIntyre's displays are any different to what was on show in the NRC, even in a successful team. It was much easier to carry him at that level on the back of Frisby & Kerevi and no one seemed to notice it.

So to answer your question I don't think it is all down to poor structure. I think coaching may help, but unless you have Stephen Larkham lined up for a transfer, you will be hard pressed to find a suitable coach that understands the position inside and out & has an attacking gameplan to suit.

This is all redundant talk you know. Jake was RG's guy and is now MOC's. I think some of you give too much benefit of the doubt to the Coaches because 'they'd know better, they are on the inside'. Well guess what? The inside is proven to be rife with politics and bad decisions at the Reds. The results are proof that whatever they are thinking is wrong. It doesn't work and they can't/won't adapt.

Reds will not be competitive any time soon. Losing Gill next year will absolutely have a devastating effect. The Hunt experiment will draw to a close with no return on a significant investment (compared to say Folau). Kerevi will be the standout player but under utilised. Reds recruitment will continue to overpay for league players and 'big' names that will flop in a set piece orientated gameplan. The narrative is stale and predictable, much like a Reds game these days.

I think that it is crucial for the Reds to bring in a fresh coach who wants to play an attractive brand of rugby otherwise this BS will continue. No one pays to watch guys pack a scrum, and if you do, your an idiot.

Piss off old mate.

I might be an idiot to some of the uneducated, dirty, unwashed masses out there but I love seeing the Reds scrum dominate against virtually all other teams. WTF do I have else to look forward to. - backs dropping the ball

 

[Waterboyrugby]

Piss off old mate.

I might be an idiot to some of the uneducated, dirty, unwashed masses out there but I love seeing the Reds scrum dominate against virtually all other teams. WTF do I have else to look forward to. - backs dropping the ball

Haha. Oh dear. A good scrum is a necessity, but only to recycle ball! An absolute bore and time drainer to watch. The backs need more ball to get better, and if they drop it no worries mate you'll get another scrum to watch.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Haha. Oh dear. A good scrum is a necessity, but only to recycle ball! An absolute bore and time drainer to watch. The backs need more ball to get better, and if they drop it no worries mate you'll get another scrum to watch.

Happy to purchase a football for all backs.

A dominant scrum (ours) is a thing of beauty.

Have a great day - maybe even talk to a fattie or 2 to enlighten yourself about the "dark arts"

 

[Lindommer]

Even I, an old fullback, got a tingly feeling in my water when the Tahs scrum shunted the Stormers at 78 minutes to win the match. There're times when a dominant scrum (ours) truly is a thing of beauty.