Reds 2016

[Braveheart81]

Working in JOC (James O'Connor)'s favour is that several of the players he is competing with are also struggling for form.

 

[RugbyReg]

JOC (James O'Connor) will make the squad, on what basis. The same basis that Elsom and Vickerman were selected, potential and past glories. His form has not been as good as others in his position.Simple.

.

what others? I don't think JOC (James O'Connor) has set the world on fire, but don't see many wingers who have.

 

[Troy]

JOC (James O'Connor) will make the squad, on what basis. The same basis that Elsom and Vickerman were selected, potential and past glories. His form has not been as good as others in his position.Simple.

As for signing Hunt and making him VC when he hasn't played Rugby for a decade and even League for 5 years is a big ask. To sign him as a "playmaker" reserve was insane. It is not a good signing. Sign him sure, but do it with backup to ensure that he is covered if he fails. If this sort of approach had been taken the issue of his dabbling with illicit substances wouldn't have been a probelm. Teams have been burnt plenty of times before with League recruits to make this a sensible path.

Grow up. Pots and kettles Sands, just because you don't like the arguments it doesn't mean they are petulant. For the reasons stated they have been poor signing and if you want keep hold of your toys and argue otherwise, with some reasons and not accusation.

That's what I was thinking BH, but Gnostic I'd be interested to know who's is doing better than him. Granted he may not start but I'd be surprised if he's not in the squad

 

[Braveheart81]

You have to also consider that players with plenty of Wallaby experience who are struggling for form a bit are very unlikely to miss out in place of an inexperienced player who has been a bit better for various parts of the season.

Any bolters would need to be absolutely playing the house down to be considered.

 

[Gnostic]

I look at players like Tomane and Shipperly and see players having far more impact with the touches they get. I don't expect JOC (James O'Connor) to be carving up, impossible in a side with a plan as poor as the Reds, but I would expect him to make more of what he has got and his defence was poor with a number of straight up one on one tackles. If we look at JOC (James O'Connor) purely as a winger. At 15 I would also say Morahan has been playing quite well in a very limiting game plan. We can also now say D. Mitchell.

I'd be surprised if he is left out as well, simply because at the RWC an experienced quality utility can be invaluable.

The question wasn't about RWC selection though it was about the merit of signs for the Reds and if they have been value over those who left. A valid argument can be made on behalf of JOC (James O'Connor), I will accept that, I don't agree but can see the point.

On the Hunt signing the premise was flawed because of his time away from the game (and even from League) and there was no depth coverage in the squad for key positions to allow the two big name signings. That was plain silly.

 

[Bobby Sands]

JOC (James O'Connor) will play in the world cup. It's just trolling. In fact he will be a starter in all big-matches if fit.

As for the rest, I can't even be bothered.

If you are suggesting Hunt was a bad signing, then well, I cannot agree. We didn't sign him as a "playmaker" as you suggest, he literally said give me the job I will do it after Duncan struggled in the trails.

Tui is a Japanese import, and doesn't take up a space. He offers skills that the Reds lack, and it is too be seen how that will work if he gets on the paddock.

JOC (James O'Connor) has had flashes of genius, coming off no pre-season. He has done nothing but add to the side when he had played.

I have no interest in "arguing" any further about this.

Petulant is still the correct word for this stuff.

 

[RedsHappy]

what others? I don't think JOC (James O'Connor) has set the world on fire, but don't see many wingers who have.

Look, these assessments aren't straightforward given varying team conditions, coaching competencies, etc, but surely, for S15 in 2015, it could reasonably be argued that:

Horne, Betham, Naiyaravoro, Tomane, and possibly Naivalu, for example have had more consistent impact and winger-type success from the touches they've had than has JO'C.

I would also have to say that the potential excuse for JO'C that 'he's in a badly coached side' doesn't totally hold water when we consider the consistent winger's impact our very own Honey Badger has had over many years in arguably poorly coached Force sides coupled with 'ordinary' general back line talent there.

 

[fatprop]

what others? I don't think JOC (James O'Connor) has set the world on fire, but don't see many wingers who have.

I would have thought a unit as talented as him would be making more positive efforts in both attack and defence

 

[RedsHappy]

JOC (James O'Connor) will make the WC squad.

Tui got injured, JOC (James O'Connor) was injured, and Karmichael had a situation unforeseen to anyone.

Grow-up.

To say they are bad signings is not constructive or even criticism, it is after the fact petulant nonsense.

The perspective I have on this is different to the many who go back and say something like 'they looked like great signings at the time they were made, so on that basis they were/are good signings for the Reds'.

Retrospection can indeed seem to justify many things and actions. But, when the bell tolls, in professional sport as in pretty much professional anything, what counts is not so much the post-hoc rationalisations, but, instead, it's the actual results from and outcomes of senior persons' decisions that truly matter and make or break the assessments of how right or wrong they got the judgements that form the destinies of their charges.

I'd argue that on results to date, for the seemingly high to very prices paid, the KH, JO'C and say Tui signings have proven poor so far* in that very large tracts of the $ salary cap have been used to very limited outcome effect.

And in the end these calls, amongst other things of course, are in part what makes or breaks coaching careers as fundamentally you simply have to get high playing impacts from your most expensive signings.

*This applies to 2015's season. Certainly, it's possible that if KH, JOC (James O'Connor) etc stay on for 2016, they may play the house down and end up as great signings based on that season's actual results. However, your most expensive signings have to, by economic definition, start producing exceptional results relatively quickly.

 

[Train Without a Station]

RH they have in fact turned out to be poor signings. Completely fair in judgement of the return they have offered in 2015.

To criticize the decision based on future and generally unexpected events is not fair, as the Reds hierarchy did not have the benefit of these at the time they made their decision.

Could they have expected Tui would fracture his leg? No.

Could they expect JOC (James O'Connor) would be regularly sidelined with injuries? Unlikely. Over a number of Super Rugby and international seasons he had a fairly good injury record.

Could they have expected Hunt would be implicated in a drug syndicate, be suspended 6 weeks, then strain his groin, then have gastro? Possibly a groin strain given his injuries at the Suns - though this is unrelated to those.

Fair to say, it certainly has not worked out well in hindsight, but for the people that are describing these signings as some sort of monumental stuff ups by the person at the time, they are being very unrealistic and unfair.

 

[RedsHappy]

RH they have in fact turned out to be poor signings. Completely fair in judgement of the return they have offered in 2015.

To criticize the decision based on future and generally unexpected events is not fair, as the Reds hierarchy did not have the benefit of these at the time they made their decision.

Could they have expected Tui would fracture his leg? No.

Could they expect JOC (James O'Connor) would be regularly sidelined with injuries? Unlikely. Over a number of Super Rugby and international seasons he had a fairly good injury record.

Could they have expected Hunt would be implicated in a drug syndicate, be suspended 6 weeks, then strain his groin, then have gastro? Possibly a groin strain given his injuries at the Suns - though this is unrelated to those.

Fair to say, it certainly has not worked out well in hindsight, but for the people that are describing these signings as some sort of monumental stuff ups by the person at the time, they are being very unrealistic and unfair.

You make some valid points TWAS.

My perspective is not pure black-white on this.

What I might add, as something of a side point: there were injury and fatigue-related risks known at the time in 2014 re players playing multiple back-to-back seasons, and thus avoiding an S15 pre-season. And KH's gradually increasing injury toll was well known at the Suns.

Absolutely, these were not necessarily reasons not to recruit say JOC (James O'Connor) and KH and Tui.

However, these preceding and known risks, and the varying gaps these two players (and more so Tui btw) had had from rugby and Super rugby, definitely made it critical that the Reds HPU going into 2015 possessed really top quality (a) S&C capability in depth and (b) ditto backs coaching capability (for JOC (James O'Connor) and KH) in order to execute an appropriate mitigation strategy for these risks that obviously could prove highly expensive if realised.

Now, I think we know all too well that neither (a) nor (b) existed well in 2014, or come to exist any better in 2015. (a) has been a real debacle with senior fall-outs and multiple departures both early and mid-season, and re (b) I think you and I would wholly agree that Meehan has been a walking disaster for the Reds in both 2014 and 2015. With the clear evidence being that either he is seriously incompetent at Super level, or, if there was a defence for Meehan, RG has totally repressed and misused his talents at all times, which amounts to the same outcome for the team.

My point here is that, especially for your most expensive elite new players, if there are risks identified, competent management puts forward-planned mitigation strategies in place to mitigate them being realised. That this did not happen within the total Reds organisation is but one part of the reason we have ended up with the results we have all been horrified by in 2015.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Yes I think the right direction to be appointing blame is the performance of the S & C (we do not know whether this was due to poor staff, or due to ignoring the advice of the staff in place though - All we know is that something has gone wrong) and the coaching.

Hunt had injury issues at the Suns (Shoulder, Knee and Hamstring - none at all aggravated). He did however have a significant period of break to adjust between AFL and Rugby Union. The Reds did focus on this, choosing not to play him in the NRC.

JOC (James O'Connor) and Tui have falled victims to injuries they suffered after signing. Somewhat unavoidable. Tui's fracture could not at all be managed, but better S & C management surely would have reduced JOC (James O'Connor)'s time spent injured.

Every signing is a risk, and as you say, none of the measures that could have mitigated these risks for the Reds appear apparent.

I have been pragmatic about this whole thing, as I don't believe in just jumping to conclusions however the Red's handling of the Hunt issue has shown the level of moral fiber in the organisation right now. It was extremely disappointing to seem them jumping around looking to make excuses and not terminate Hunt's contract, such as that he was an AFL player at the time. The lack of strong action on this matter, making an example of the standards they uphold is similar to what appears to be a large issue in the coaching. Nobody willing to make hard calls, to hold people accountable, etc.

 

[Floggn']

Yes I think the right direction to be appointing blame is the performance of the S & C (we do not know whether this was due to poor staff, or due to ignoring the advice of the staff in place though - All we know is that something has gone wrong) and the coaching.

I am led to believe it was the latter that advise was ignored by Graham several times which led to him leaving. I also have heard that Marsh is potentially coming back to Qld which would be a huge gain for the Reds if that was the case. Lastly I like many other people here know that RG has told players he will be there in 2016 which genuinely scares the shit out of me because not only do the fans not want him but the players don't either. I just don't understand the Board's thinking.

 

[RedsHappy]

........(edit)

I have been pragmatic about this whole thing, as I don't believe in just jumping to conclusions however the Red's handling of the Hunt issue has shown the level of moral fiber in the organisation right now. It was extremely disappointing to seem them jumping around looking to make excuses and not terminate Hunt's contract, such as that he was an AFL player at the time. The lack of strong action on this matter, making an example of the standards they uphold is similar to what appears to be a large issue in the coaching. Nobody willing to make hard calls, to hold people accountable, etc.

Yes, oh yes.

It's incredible that after all of 2014's and 2015's appalling w-l outcomes not a single QRU coach, executive or board member has come forward to show even a scintilla of direct accountability and sincere responsibility-taking.

The best we have, late in the piece, was Saturday's 'this (poor results) is unacceptable to the (QRU) organisation'.

Mr QRU Organisation, whomever he is, has no known address or Medicare number. Who is this person?

Instead of standards-enforcing and accountabilty-taking we have the quite ludicrous notion that, after 15+ months of mentoring by Link and two years of head coaching by himself, RG now needs, not immediate sacking, but 'mentoring' and 'consutling support' from 'new support resources'.

If the business world was run like this, we'd have the living standards of Outer Mongolia and every second person would list their occupation as 'Mentor & Consultant'.

 

[Braveheart81]

It's obvious that the Reds are desperate for Knuckles to commence his mentoring role.

Only then can the QRU bring proper accountability to the 2015 season by sacking Knuckles for gross underperformance in contributing to the Reds languishing on the bottom of the table.

 

[RedsHappy]

^^^ One other quite serious point re the Knuckles appointment, as it is right through 2016.

I have said before: if needed, the QRU should allocate big $s to a coaching change and go about trying to recruit a Dave Rennie or a coach of similar calibre.

If a major, long-established RU is determined and invests the right organisational guts, sincerity and $s into it, they can potentially persuade elite talent to join, just as the Waratahs RU did with M Cheika in late 2012, and, despite an awful recent past at that time, win him over.

However, I would surmise that the best elite coaches would be very leery, and justifiably so, reporting to a 'director or rugby' Knuckles with all his close and intimate connections of history with QRU board members and the like. Who of any calibre and genuine professional self-confidence would be happy with this odd arrangement?

I wonder if the QRU has thought this all through or (a) they are just determined to have their beloved RG through 2016 or (b) they are just in arse-covering panic mode and flailing around anxiously for any fix that looks OK for 10 minutes and that won't force them to admit the error.

 

[Ash]

Regarding JOC (James O'Connor), he's had flashes of showing what he is capable of. Hard to do more in the Reds side, so it's hard to know if he will do more if given the chance. What waits to be seen is if the Wallabies will take a punt on JOC (James O'Connor) or not, I bet they will.

Regarding JOC (James O'Connor)'s defence, his defensive stats are actually not nearly as bad as has been implied. JOC (James O'Connor)'s faced a lot of overlaps, and is being blamed for not shutting them down. It's a bit unfair that JOC (James O'Connor) is being blamed for the Reds crappy defensive system and implementation thereof, but that's the way it is right now.

 

[TOCC]

I believe I read in this thread that someone rated Morahan above JOC (James O'Connor) for the Wallabies. Evidentially they haven't seen Morahan try and tackle one on one. His defence has been very poor this year, JOC (James O'Connor)'s defence hasn't been great but it would seem JOC (James O'Connor) is held to a higher standard.


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[biggsy]

Graham will have "final call" on decisions relating to the Reds game plan and preparation, but he outlined he would lean on Connolly for advice wherever necessary.

"I'm still clear in the direction that we want to go," Graham said.



Can't see the point of knuckles if RG has finall call.

 

[RedsHappy]

VIDEO FLASH!

The new partnership of RG and JC is self-announced below.

RG reveals the compelling insight that the pattern of all recent losses to the Crusaders is remarkably similar. We should be vastly relieved to know that. Nonetheless, significant progress for the Reds was made in the five previous games this season.

(J Connolly's facial expression in this conversation makes me think that Dismal Pillock's graphical interpretation of this momentous first set of 'partnership' pronouncements would make for interesting reading.)