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Reds 2015

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
It's bizarre to me that Duncan Paia'aua has been discarded so quickly. He was pretty average in that trial game but he wasn't awful and I think it has become pretty clear that the Reds issues extend far beyond the 10 jersey.

Cooper was good in the game and a half he played but if even he couldn't turn it around against fairly average opposition then it's obvious that there is no simple fix available.

If Genia started delivering the ball in front of the 10 and the outside runners worked harder to provide options then any 10 for the Reds would look dramatically better. They also need players working across from the other side to provide options in the opposite direction.

At the moment, players are receiving the ball in static positions well behind the gain line and because there aren't other runners in motion the defence is pretty certain where the ball is going to go.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Duncan was poor to horrible, Give him some time in Prems, If he blitzes them at that level then reasonable to give him another shot at the big time.

He nees some time in the rough and tumble of prems rugby to learn the game

Other points of BH are all very valid - re runners + Genia
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I thought he was no worse than JOC (James O'Connor) in the position. The issue for any 10 even Cooper in his two games was the total lack of attack structure. No support runners and no options. Genia's slow inaccurate service doesn't help either. The Reds issues are structural as much or more than personnel IMO.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Duncan was poor to horrible, Give him some time in Prems, If he blitzes them at that level then reasonable to give him another shot at the big time.

Was his game that bad in retrospect?

It was humid and there were lots of handling errors in general in that game. At the time, Reds fans also thought their team was going to be pretty strong so it was easy to take that frustration out on Paia'aua.

It makes no sense to me that they'll either persist with Frisby or Tuttle is now being considered an option in that position. What will that achieve?

Frisby should be the first choice 9 next year for the Reds. Whilst playing him at 10 might improve his play there, is it ever likely to be a long term option? I wouldn't think so.

What happens if Cooper leaves next season or stays and gets injured again? It seems like they'll be back in that same position without a reasonable 10 to step in and take the reins.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
Duncan was poor to horrible, Give him some time in Prems, If he blitzes them at that level then reasonable to give him another shot at the big time.

He nees some time in the rough and tumble of prems rugby to learn the game

Other points of BH are all very valid - re runners + Genia

It was arguably wrong to chuck him in the deep end to begin with (a very deep end given his background), but absolute lunacy to then drag him back out again almost immediately.

Perfect way to destroy the confidence of an individual. Horrible management practice.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Was his game that bad in retrospect?

It was humid and there were lots of handling errors in general in that game. At the time, Reds fans also thought their team was going to be pretty strong so it was easy to take that frustration out on Paia'aua.

It makes no sense to me that they'll either persist with Frisby or Tuttle is now being considered an option in that position. What will that achieve?

Frisby should be the first choice 9 next year for the Reds. Whilst playing him at 10 might improve his play there, is it ever likely to be a long term option? I wouldn't think so.

What happens if Cooper leaves next season or stays and gets injured again? It seems like they'll be back in that same position without a reasonable 10 to step in and take the reins.
What happens if Cooper leaves or gets injured again?
Unless they recruit a back up,they will be screwed.
Persevering with failures is not the road to success either.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
What happens if Cooper leaves or gets injured again?
Unless they recruit a back up,they will be screwed.
Persevering with failures is not the road to success either.

Isn't Paia'aua the backup? He justs needs the opportunity.

You'd imagine that Paia'aua will either be the backup to Cooper in 2016 or the backup to a new signing. Worst case scenario he could be the first choice which is why he needs game time to develop.

It just seems they have much more to gain by playing a young developing 10 at 10 rather than playing the reserve 9 at 10.
 
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David Codey (61)
Or maybe concede they made an error,and start again.
I think they were being overly optimistic to recruit someone based on their form as a 16 yo,who hadn't played the game for a couple of years.
Give him a year or two in A grade and then judge him.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Was his game that bad in retrospect?

It was humid and there were lots of handling errors in general in that game. At the time, Reds fans also thought their team was going to be pretty strong so it was easy to take that frustration out on Paia'aua.

It makes no sense to me that they'll either persist with Frisby or Tuttle is now being considered an option in that position. What will that achieve?

Frisby should be the first choice 9 next year for the Reds. Whilst playing him at 10 might improve his play there, is it ever likely to be a long term option? I wouldn't think so.

What happens if Cooper leaves next season or stays and gets injured again? It seems like they'll be back in that same position without a reasonable 10 to step in and take the reins.

Spot on BH.

The increasingly high-risk, total centricity of QC (Quade Cooper) to any semblance of competent Reds' attack has been increasing since 2013 (and perhaps even 2012, but the huge number of injured Reds' 10s that year muddled the whole picture).

It's been increasing for entirely the wrong reasons, namely that the rest of the Reds attack in terms of well-reheared ensemble play, backs attack ploys off set piece, 'load sharing' in terms of well executed second receiver plays, second and third touches by the 9, 10 and 12, the type of issues you raise in term of planned backs options (actual and decoy) on both flanks, runners from depth, the replacement for the once-invaluable Ioane (and to a degree Higgers who often played like a 2nd 13 or 3rd winger), etc, etc, have all in these elements markedly deteriorated since late 2012 (see the generally poor Reds attack v Sharks 2012 S15 QF).

And with that deterioration has come a decreasing team w-l ratio, lowered tries per game, etc., we all know the story.

But, as noted, perhaps the most reckless and strategically dangerous aspect of this continuing degradation has been the increasing reliance on QC (Quade Cooper) as 'miracle compensator' as the burden of responding to the whole-of-attack degradation fell on QC (Quade Cooper) to issue miracle long balls, flashy inside balls that often resulted in nothing further, passive support backs just waiting for QC (Quade Cooper) to 'do something to set up points' and so on.

Then, finally, with RG taking over completely from 2014, this whole negative deficiency in team skill and depth has been hugely magnified (in a long-term context) by the fact that virtually nothing has been done to develop a solid plan for growing 'the Reds next 10 in waiting' to deal with both QC (Quade Cooper) injury risks and/or his likely move on from the Reds in 2016. Lucas and Harris were there as tactical gap fillers, but no better solution was planned or prioritised. Then those two departed in 2014. And, of course, a very poor bacsk/attack coach was chosen by RG from the 2014 season on, this has only worsened the pre-existing problems and fixed none of them, it's all quite obvious.

So, today, now, the 2015 Reds have made for themselves the very worst of all worlds: a totally deficient attacking depth and lack of prowess of ensemble attacking skills coupled with a total dearth of alternatives to 'the miracle compensator' QC (Quade Cooper). Hence a complete rookie heads to SA as declared 'back up for QC (Quade Cooper)' and we have a competent 9 in Frisby attempting to face as a 10 one of the comps best and rapidly emerging top 10s in Pollard.

(Btw: another side and negative consequence of all the above is that I am convinced QC (Quade Cooper) himself has not grown as much as the highly talented 10 he is in the environment that's recently existed at the Reds. How could he with such excessive 'save the team' burdens being constantly placed upon his shoulders?)
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
You continue with this ludicrous agenda as if it's a massive recruitment shortcoming to not have a high quality replacement for your most influential attacking player.

You completely ignore the fact that Harris was inadequate there and Lucas had his own injury woes also.

Every team lacks depth in some positions. How would the Waratahs fared in 2014 had Phipps, Kepu or Hooper been injured?

Some of their success comes down to luck. Luck that Stephen Hoiles had overcome his injuries and wanted to push for a spot on no contract. Luck that Latu stepped up.

I doubt they would have won the title had there been McKibbin at 9, Ryan at 3 or McCutcheon at 7 though.

Some teams just don't have deep cover in some positions.

What about the Chiefs in 2013? Take at Kerr-Barlow and how do they look. Sure they have great cover at 7 between Latimer and Cane, but what if they lost Messam. Would they have been as strong? Where was their cover?

What about the Brumbies? If White goes down at 9 how do you expect them to fare with Dowsett? Poor planning Brumbies!

No team has depth in every position. It takes a bit of luck to be a top team, in that you need to be lucky enough that injuries fall where you have depth. The Reds, like many teams operating within a salary cap, lost some of the players that attributed to their success.

So what about the Reds back up plan for the future? What do you expect? Should they manufacture a great 10 prospect out of thin air? They have one in McIntyre who has spent the entire off-season injured. It's not like they are just letting promising 10's go. Who are the young 10's in other systems? Debreczeni in Melbourne from Sydney, and Hegarty in Melbourne from Brisbane. I doubt many suggest the Reds erred in not snagging Hegarty.

So in actually fact the Reds have 2 young 10's under contract to develop, oddly enough this has happened after 2 more experienced and expensive options departed.

You make these comments with no regard for a limited squad size and limited funds to fill that squad, within a competitive market.

As I have said previously, why don't we just aim the vitriol at the real problems. Poor S & C, poor injury management, poor collision work, poor attack structure and seemingly no plan to breach defenses beyond hoping for miracle plays, passive defense and all of the other real issues where the coaches made the real errors, rather than picking holes in the squad simply because injuries have occurred, which would impact any other team in different key positions (Depending on team)
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
JOC (James O'Connor) or Hunt should both be reasonable back up 10s at Super Rugby level and I think they would be if the rest of the team was playing to a decent level.

As TWAS said, the reality of Super Rugby is that your replacement 10 is either going to be your starting 12 or 15 or a young up and comer who needs experience.

If your first choice player is also one of the best players in your whole team then you are going to feel that loss far more.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
You continue with this ludicrous agenda as if it's a massive recruitment shortcoming to not have a high quality replacement for your most influential attacking player.

You completely ignore the fact that Harris was inadequate there and Lucas had his own injury woes also.

Every team lacks depth in some positions. How would the Waratahs fared in 2014 had Phipps, Kepu or Hooper been injured?

Some of their success comes down to luck. Luck that Stephen Hoiles had overcome his injuries and wanted to push for a spot on no contract. Luck that Latu stepped up.

I doubt they would have won the title had there been McKibbin at 9, Ryan at 3 or McCutcheon at 7 though.

Some teams just don't have deep cover in some positions.

What about the Chiefs in 2013? Take at Kerr-Barlow and how do they look. Sure they have great cover at 7 between Latimer and Cane, but what if they lost Messam. Would they have been as strong? Where was their cover?

What about the Brumbies? If White goes down at 9 how do you expect them to fare with Dowsett? Poor planning Brumbies!

No team has depth in every position. It takes a bit of luck to be a top team, in that you need to be lucky enough that injuries fall where you have depth. The Reds, like many teams operating within a salary cap, lost some of the players that attributed to their success.

So what about the Reds back up plan for the future? What do you expect? Should they manufacture a great 10 prospect out of thin air? They have one in McIntyre who has spent the entire off-season injured. It's not like they are just letting promising 10's go. Who are the young 10's in other systems? Debreczeni in Melbourne from Sydney, and Hegarty in Melbourne from Brisbane. I doubt many suggest the Reds erred in not snagging Hegarty.

So in actually fact the Reds have 2 young 10's under contract to develop, oddly enough this has happened after 2 more experienced and expensive options departed.

You make these comments with no regard for a limited squad size and limited funds to fill that squad, within a competitive market.

As I have said previously, why don't we just aim the vitriol at the real problems. Poor S & C, poor injury management, poor collision work, poor attack structure and seemingly no plan to breach defenses beyond hoping for miracle plays, passive defense and all of the other real issues where the coaches made the real errors, rather than picking holes in the squad simply because injuries have occurred, which would impact any other team in different key positions (Depending on team)

Agree with this except the part about Harris not being a Super quality 10. He'd start in front of the two we have at the Force.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
The majority of my post above is focussed upon managerial and coaching matters inside the Reds, spanning many years.

We can just agree to disagree re the whole 'back up 10' matter, where some here endorse the overall Reds/RG approach to that issue, I clearly do not.

The fact that RG, by his own admission, began scouring the global market (and not the Reds market, so to speak) for a back up 10 to QC (Quade Cooper) as soon as QC (Quade Cooper) was injured in the pre-season, and again now with his latest injury, speaks volumes on this matter, but I'll leave it there.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
TWAS, surely every competent coach looks at his "best" team and then goes through the scenario of an injury to every position to see how the depth in his squad covers those injuries. Same for retirements and/or players moving on. By any reasonable judgment RG has failed here.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Lindommer, I'd say that every team has back up in key positions to be lesser quality than Duncan, JOC (James O'Connor), Karmichael Hunt and Duncan P at 10.

JOC (James O'Connor) is a test capped 10. It's not unreasonable to expect him to be adequate 10 cover.

Has Michael Cheika got quality back up for Hooper at 7 in McCutcheon and Phipps at 9 in McKibbin? What about for Kepu in Ryan? Has he failed because he doesn't have a quality back up in some key positions?

Has Rennie got good cover for Kerr-Barlow in Pulu? I'd argue that based on how they scraped home against the lowly Blues he didn't have a stellar performance last weekend Has Larkham got good cover for White in Dowsett?

The Brumbies basically have no 13 cover and needed to move Speight there to cover for Kuridrani despite having almost no experience there.

I could go on all day here. Almost every squad has holes in some positions. As I've noted when pointing out the some of the stronger performing teams the last few years. But most importantly, the more influential a player is, the more their loss is felt.

It would be poor salary cap management to spend a great deal of money on a player today, in case Quade leaves next year. What if he stays? You've just wasted that money potentially.

You need a back up in every position obviously. But every single team takes risks to ensure they have the best starting team possible. Some pay off, some don't. Sometimes it's because a great player comes through at a low costs. Sometimes it's because you don't get injuries in key positions.

In most cases the back up is a young player. Which was the Reds plan - both spend games unavailable due to injury. You cannot though, afford to compete with other teams paying starting salaries for a player you have identified as not being what you need as a starter in any position, to keep as a back up, which is exactly what the Reds would have needed to do for Harris or Lucas, knowing full well that neither were the 15 they needed to be successful.
 

Thinker

Darby Loudon (17)
JOC (James O'Connor) is not a test 10 but he is a good Super Rugby 10. He single handedly beat the Reds in 2010 or 2011.

We'll hear that the team suffered for injuries but RG and co have failed to secure an appropriate 10 back up and the one they have they are refusing to play.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Alright IF we accept that recruitment is or isn't part of the problem, it doesn't change the fact that every other aspect of the play has been woeful. In watching the Crusaders on the weekend it stood out how many times players stepped into the 9 and 10 position to keep the play going at pace. Now the Saders have played like this for a long time and the forwards are not spinning wide passes (unless its Reid) but they move the ball and not just pick it and get tackled in a supposed "pick and drive" which usually is at best a pick and collapse at the gain line.

The Reds whole set up in attack is passive, nobody is moving in support of the ball carrier to give options. They are all waiting for the next phase. The same goes with the defence, it is largely passive and after two years the same holes remain on the flanks. Given how much was written about the defensive structure here last here RG really has no excuse not to have addressed at least this issue.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
There appears to be no plan at all to create space, mismatches, etc.

I honestly do not understand how they intend to score tries.

Not a single player commits the defence prior to passing to the player outside.

It honestly appears as though the plan has been get it wide and hope CFS/Kerevi/Kuridrani magically break a tackle, despite there being no reason to make defending difficult, and generally, multiple defenders are able to drift, anyway.

And it completely ignores the fact that Ant and Lachie have actually generally been our most effective attackers in 2015.

The inability to create any sort of opportunities is not at all acceptable.

Couple that with the reports that the ball is coming out "too quick" according to the coaching staff, implying there is no intention to create quick phases, well it's not unexpected to see that hasn't worked.

That's before we talk about the clear drop in standards and accountability which sees kicks poorly chased and players continually failing to complete their role properly.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
JOC (James O'Connor) is not a test 10 but he is a good Super Rugby 10. He single handedly beat the Reds in 2010 or 2011.

We'll hear that the team suffered for injuries but RG and co have failed to secure an appropriate 10 back up and the one they have they are refusing to play.

Out of interest, which match Reds v Force was that in 2011 or 2010 where JOC (James O'Connor) 'single handedly' beat the Reds and showed what a fine Super no 10 he was? I recall 3 of these games over those two years, and I thought the Reds won them all. Maybe I'm wrong? And weren't those two years for the Force quite poor in w-l % terms? RG was head coach there in 2011.
 
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