Reds 2015

[RedsHappy]

W Smith in today's The Australian quotes RG as saying Frisby is the likely 10 for the SA tour. So, at this stage anyway, it would appear that KH and JOC (James O'Connor) will remain in other positions.

 

[USARugger]

Was QC (Quade Cooper)'s recent injury on the same side as his previous pair of shoulder injuries?

 

[cyclopath]

Was QC (Quade Cooper)'s recent injury on the same side as his previous pair of shoulder injuries?

I don't think so.

 

[USARugger]

Also, is it just me or is QC (Quade Cooper) looking a little too lean in the chest and shoulders?

I know he wants to be light on his feet, but you need a bit of muscle mass in Defence when the loose forwards are running at you. I reckon he needs to bulk up a little around his upper chest and shoulders if he wants to prolong his rugby career.

Hard to even maintain bulk up there if you're repeatedly injuring your shoulders. Quade's essentially come out of these injuries in the minimal time windows and then been injured pretty quickly afterwards, so would have had almost no time pushing any real weight around in the gym for a while now.

 

[USARugger]

I don't think so.

Yeah I just poked around, looks like the AC Joint injury back in May 2014 and the collarbone break back in January were on the left side and this recent fracture is on the right. Maybe he was tackling with his chest for so long because he knew things we didn't

A bit surprising he's been repeatedly injured around that area now. If anything I would have always said his particular anatomy trended towards being overly developed in that region in proportion to the rest of his body.

More importantly, injured playing the Rebels in both game injuries. Clearly a NSW conspiracy. Who are your agents in Victoria?

 

[cyclopath]

Yeah I just poked around, looks like the AC Joint injury back in May 2014 and the collarbone break back in January were on the left side and this recent fracture is on the right. Maybe he was tackling with his chest for so long because he knew things we didn't

A bit surprising he's been repeatedly injured around that area now. If anything I would have always said his particular anatomy trended towards being overly developed in that region in proportion to the rest of his body.

Depending upon which part of the scapula is fractured, it can really just be bad luck with regard to point of impact / angles of forces. The body of the scapula is bloody solid, but other parts are relatively less so, and I suspect where this fractured. Probably more to do with bad luck than strength / development. I'd have thought his quota of bad luck should be exhausted by now.

 

[USARugger]

Depending upon which part of the scapula is fractured, it can really just be bad luck with regard to point of impact / angles of forces. The body of the scapula is bloody solid, but other parts are relatively less so, and I suspect where this fractured. Probably more to do with bad luck than strength / development. I'd have thought his quota of bad luck should be exhausted by now.

You have a point. I don't remember reading about where the fracture was but I assumed based on the 9-week recovery window that it was probably somewhere along the spine or the neck. I'd think a big fracture across the body would take a bit longer to heal, much less return to play.

It's definitely a bad luck injury, one of the rarest bone breaks in almost any setting other than horseback riding. On the bright side it sounds like he got out unscathed otherwise, which is a bit lucky all things considered. Could have easily come with a side of rotator cuff tear or shoulder dislocation if he was impacted hard enough to fracture his scapula.

Clavicle fracture could have just been shit luck too. Even if you're a bigger guy there's still not too much there.

 

[RedsHappy]

Think someone mentioned a few pages back that Duncan is currently with the U-20s.

I gather he may have had concussion issues recently, as well.

 

[gel]

Re: playing Frisby at 10. What are all y'all thoughts on keeping the players playing in their best positions irrespective of who covers for the missing link?

For quite a while I have had a feeling that the Australian teams seem to keep shuffling guys around whenever a star player goes down and it has tended to end up with awhole group of players running around in their less than ideal positions.

Based on my absolutely no research whatsoever and zero effort that seems to be the way we have been doing it and it hasn't really been working out.

I think it is best to have players playing in their best positions and if that means Frisby at 10, then fair enough. There is a better chance of the optimal line up functioning with all bar one in their optimal positions than everyone shuffled around.

Anyway, burger just arrived so have at it, guys.........

 

[RedsHappy]

In hindsight JOC (James O'Connor) and HUNT have not provided decent back up abilities at 10 but at the time of team planning I think it is reasonable to expect that they both would provide backup.

HIndsight is a great thing but surely a French premiership winning flyhalf and former Wallaby flyhalf should be a suitable backup.

At the cusp as I am of Rule 10's requirements and having endured TWAS's insults (poor me , and some now edited out I note), two final points in this debate (well, final from me, anyway).

First, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any poster here using the cursed 'hindsight' as a basis for their current critique of, say, a coach's recruiting calls or general policy going as far back as desired.

If a CEO is ultimately sacked for 'in hindsight' having taken what have turned out to be a a raft of poor decisions that have damaged his/her company, the board so sacking is of course acting 'with the benefit of hindisight' in that what has ultimately resulted from these decisions has been highly deficient, and that is precisely what elite accountability is and always should be about. That is how elites are and should be judged, on results.

And we here are largely a community of rugby-loving fan/critics in combination. What matters at the end of all our thinking and commentary along the way is what ultimately results for the success of our teams, players and Aus rugby in general. Whether 'hindsight' is engaged in our assessments of what's occurred is largely irrelevant, especially if what's occurred is seriously damaging to whatever rugby cause we're passionate about.

Second, KH largely played in the centres for one 'injury cover' season for Biarritz and they didn't in 2009-10 win a 'French Premiership' (they got close to a H.C. win though). KH played a handful (if that) of his games at Biarritz at 10, and that was 4-5 years ago pre a long-ish AFL period. At Churchie GPS rugby he played at 15. How all this makes him a credible S15 10 backup many years later is beyond me. And re JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 - I can recall virtually every commentator anywhere in the universe all agreeing, post BIL 2013, that the JOC (James O'Connor) experiment there was a Wallaby disaster and it all sadly proved he was not, and likely never would be, a credible, viable 10 in any capacity in elite rugby.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

. I'd have thought his quota of bad luck should be exhausted by now.

Bad luck can be outrun or distracted but karma is a vengeful bitch & she WILL hunt you down, if it takes her forever........................

 

[RedsHappy]

Re: playing Frisby at 10. What are all y'all thoughts on keeping the players playing in their best positions irrespective of who covers for the missing link?

For quite a while I have had a feeling that the Australian teams seem to keep shuffling guys around whenever a star player goes down and it has tended to end up with awhole group of players running around in their less than ideal positions.

Based on my absolutely no research whatsoever and zero effort that seems to be the way we have been doing it and it hasn't really been working out.

I think it is best to have players playing in their best positions and if that means Frisby at 10, then fair enough. There is a better chance of the optimal line up functioning with all bar one in their optimal positions than everyone shuffled around.

Anyway, burger just arrived so have at it, guys...

One thing pre the SA tour is now reasonably clear, at least from what W Smith is quoting. Namely, RG has decided that JOC (James O'Connor) should play on the wing and, seemingly, KH at 15, the original backline plan. Frisby at 10 to be 'the compromised adjustment'.

Whatever else, the season is gone, we can observe now with a kind of academic detachment, the results of this new backline pattern will be intriguing (if that's the word).

Especially if Pollard is back, I think we'll be in for a quite a contest v Bulls.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Think someone mentioned a few pages back that Duncan is currently with the U-20s.

So is Tuttle and Korcyck who are also in South Africa. Hence my question.

 

[Train Without a Station]

And what's your basis that Lucas is any better as a back up 10? A few games 3 years ago when the entire team was playing better around him?

Which still brings us back to the fact, he did not fit into the best team and therefore could not be allocated any significant salary, so he would have had to stay for a contract like they are paying Duncan P.

Because as I have said repeatedly, the only teams that have quality 10 back up, when they already have a quality starter, at the teams where that back up fits into a second starting position.

 

[Train Without a Station]

For the record can anybody tell me who the last team to win a super rugby tournament without their first choice 10?

Because looking through all the records I can find (back to 2004) from what I can see every team had their first choice 10. If Derrick Hougaard was not the Bulls first choice 10 in 2007, that would be 1 in 12 seasons.

Back up is important, but clearly every winning team has also managed their first choice 10 to stay fit for the key games.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I have said this before but
When Genia had signed with the Force Lucas re signed on a larger contract (to play 9 the following year) Genia reneged on his Force deal so the Reds were stuck with Lucas's new upgraded contract.

Fast forward 3 years I think. Genia still at Reds and the Reds wanted to re sign Ben at a reduced contract which reflected his standing in the pecking order. He disagreed and Ben left.

Simple commerciality

 

[Purce]

So is Tuttle and Korcyck who are also in South Africa. Hence my question.

Mate I get the impression Duncan is a fair way down the pecking order. Dalgleish was starting ahead of him at the recent U20s tournament. I'd think one of them will be left out of the Aus 20s... from all reports the NSW U20 flyhalves were very good.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

For the record can anybody tell me who the last team to win a super rugby tournament without their first choice 10?

Because looking through all the records I can find (back to 2004) from what I can see every team had their first choice 10. If Derrick Hougaard was not the Bulls first choice 10 in 2007, that would be 1 in 12 seasons.

Back up is important, but clearly every winning team has also managed their first choice 10 to stay fit for the key games.

Not Super Rugby but the New Zealand Rugby Team seemed to do OK with their 4th choice Flyhalf at a recent big tournament.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Not Super Rugby but the New Zealand Rugby Team seemed to do OK with their 4th choice Flyhalf at a recent big tournament.

That would be the one with 80+ super rugby caps and 20+ test caps, no?

Also, in a level of rugby that has no salary constraints, correct?

 

[ChargerWA]

Not Super Rugby but the New Zealand Rugby Team seemed to do OK with their 4th choice Flyhalf at a recent big tournament.

Yeah, but when your 4th fly half is as good as most other teams first, it's not going to effect you much.

Super teams have a squad of 32 to draw from and then are looking at Subbies players. Test teams have 32 x 5 to draw from.