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Reds 2014

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gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
Are you also saying we should cut Sautia? It's complete anarchy in here.
Yes.

I am very clear in that - he should be cut.

What good is having a player who cannot play regularly? I have read about how awesome he is. I have even seen the potential when on the field. But at what point does his not playing become a liability?

How many seasons would you give someone? Can someone at least answer that question for me without just saying "but look he *could* be so good, if only.........".

We don't all have to always agree on everything.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
I don't think you can compare CFS and Toua.

Toua has been in the system for multiple years and continues to suffer the same injuries whilst also being deficient in some areas.

CFS has had what, 2 hamstring injuries? Then there's a shoulder injury which as noted, could have happened to anybody. You've also got to consider that CFS has been pushed back each time and perhaps a little more time would have helped. More importantly CFS's shortcomings as a player appear to be more to coaching, than skill shortcomings.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
At some point, the Reds probably need to decide which of their injury prone players they really want to retain and maybe let one or two go.

The problem is that some of these young guys suffer a whole lot of injuries early in their career and then they finish growing, get stronger and suddenly find themselves comparatively injury free. If you let that guy go, you might find that you've put up with all the injuries and his new club gets all the benefit of a mature, fit player.

Personally, I'd be working hard on keeping CFS. The shoulder injury was unfortunate but the fact that it is unrelated to his major hamstring issues is maybe a slight relief. During his rehab, the Reds should be working incredibly hard on his flexibility via yoga etc. to hopefully deal with his hamstring issues once and for all.

Toua is more difficult in my opinion. He has been available far less and also achieved far less than CFS. He's also 4 years older. As he's already contracted for 2015, you'd figure that he stays on and you see how he goes next year. If he has another injury stifled season it would seem crazy not to cut him loose. If he stays fit and plays most of the season you'd try and keep him for 2016. He's played so little rugby in the last few years that from a development perspective, he's far closer to a Super Rugby rookie than a 24 year old who's been in a professional setup for several years.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I can't understand the argument behind dropping a player like CFS...

I'd be looking at the future of Fainga'a, Harris, Lucas, Toua and Shipperly before CFS..


Reds are short big powerful outside backs, so why would you cut the only one which is currently on the books?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I can't understand the argument behind dropping a player like CFS.

I'd be looking at the future of Fainga'a, Harris, Lucas, Toua and Shipperly before CFS..


Reds are short big powerful outside backs, so why would you cut the only one which is currently on the books?

Absolutely. CFS is still only 20. Whilst his injuries are frustrating, you'd figure he's still got a lot of time before it becomes a major issue in terms of his overall career. Currently, it should just mean that the Reds can continue to pay him more like a new Super Rugby player than a guy who played Wallaby tests in the last year.

A bit of loyalty from the Reds towards their injured young star could also pay dividends down the track when he's potentially worth a whole lot more money and in demand from other clubs.
 

emuarse

Chilla Wilson (44)
I can't understand the argument behind dropping a player like CFS.

I'd be looking at the future of Fainga'a, Harris, Lucas, Toua and Shipperly before CFS..


Reds are short big powerful outside backs, so why would you cut the only one which is currently on the books?


Its really only Gel doing a troll;)
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
Its really only Gel doing a troll;)

It really isn't a troll. I realise I am probably a lot harsher than a lot of you, but it is bugging the crap out of me that this is his third year and its been the same story all the while.

@Biggsy is also of the same opinion, so while I might be in the minority, I am not on my Pat Malone.

You all know how long I would suffer repeated injuries - i.e. 3 years or so (and it is not just two hamstring tears by the way - there is lot of hamstring strains along the way that have kept him out of games).

So most of you would say that is not enough time - fair enough.

Is 4 years enough time? 5 years? Maybe we should just wait until he is 35, because, you know, potential can sometimes take that long to shine through.

And @braveheart81 - loyalty:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

There is NO such thing at all in professional sports. As soon as he gets a better offer - he will go elsewhere irrespective of what the reds have done for him.

Anyone that thinks differently are deluded.
 

Troy

Jim Clark (26)
Wow, didn't think we'd get here. Never though of cutting Chris I think he's been one of our brightest prospects in a long time. Compare him to someone like JJ who's the same age and they seem miles apart.

My mate also has big raps on Kerevi so be interested to see how he goes.
 

Troy

Jim Clark (26)
Also re Toua he's out with a Pectoral tear (if I remember correctly?) which like CFS, is a bit unlucky.

Doesn't he also normally suffer from knee & hamstring problems?
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
There are just some players that are unlucky with injury - consistently

The question for the coaches is WHEN does a player filling a limited roster who is often injured become "redundant" to the franchise ?????
 

Troy

Jim Clark (26)
Like who Scrubber? Be interested to see who I'm missing.

To me the consistent injuries need managing and from what I can see, sitting in the stands guys like CFS are getting there.

All pro players have unlucky injuries
CFS - Dislocated Shoulder
Toua - Pectoral
Drew - Broken Foot
CLL - Broken Ankle
Poey - Both knees
Lambie - Pectoral

Even Big Kev's hamstring injury v the Brums was unlucky it was just the way he got caught.

What I would be interested to know is what ongoing training/stretching exercises they're given and if they're monitored doing them or just expected to get on with it by themselves.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Troy,
am not pointing fingers but the 2 that spring to mind are Aiden and Chris FS

Think Aiden has been at the Reds since school in 2006 or 2007 when he went straight onto a Rookie contract after the first year. From memory Aiden has had a multitude of different injuries which has meant he has only played a handful of games. Bloke is really talented and if his injuries had been minor he would have secured a Reds starting spot years ago and would probably have some Test jumpers.

CFS is another hugely talented lad but also has had plenty of injuries. People have said he is growing into his massive legs - who knows.

I don't know where the line is drawn but there must be one somewhere.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Toua is mid-20s, CFS is 20.

There's a big difference. CFS is still effectively a kid growing into his body.

Agree guys but at what point is a decision made - when he's 22 or 25 or 30. Fuck we need robust blokes on the paddock or at least in the squad.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
Toua is mid-20s, CFS is 20.

There's a big difference. CFS is still effectively a kid growing into his body.

Kudos. A perspective that I was not really considering.

Gives me some pause for thought re CFS.
 

hammertimethere

Trevor Allan (34)
Kudos. A perspective that I was not really considering.

Gives me some pause for thought re CFS.


Thank fuck because you had us worried you the stress of the poor season had caused you to blow a gasket.

If you look at it somewhat objectively.
CFS is 20...20 years old. Has not had a 21st birthday. He is literally a month or two older than some of the boys we will send to the U20's JWC this year. If it seems like he has been around a long time it's because he got a low-value rookie contract as a 17 year old that was essentially a "hands off Rebels you fucking vultures" type situation. He had chronic hamstring issues as an explosively powerful kid in his late teens who's musculoskeletal system was essentially not mature enough to handle the output he was capable of. This seems to largely have resolved over 6-12 months of consistent and quality management.

Aidan did a year and a half or so in what was then the Reds Academy as a kid and then has had 2 x 2 year contracts or something along those lines. He obviously had some issues with his knees which caused him to have to have back to back ACL recons (not that uncommon, he's not even the only one at the Reds like that) and then some chronic hamstring stuff secondary to that.

This year both have been unlucky to sustain an acute and serious shoulder injury (of different types, but both first time) that is a function of the fact they play a contact sport. Unlucky? Yes. Inconvenient for the Reds given how the season has turned out? Absolutely. Could much else have been done to prevent either one? No not really.

Is there an argument that Aidan's body has not yet returned very well on investment. Yeah I'd probably agree that there is. Can the same argument be applied to CFS? Given the fiscal nature of his first contract, his age and his value delivered in performances to date I'd say fuck no.

Some food for thought, the brumbies when they won the Title in 2004 used a grand total of 28 or so players the whole season. They suffered very little injury overall and more than that almost no injury to their key players at the time (Gregan, Larkham, Smith, Finegan and Mortlock). They kept the same team on the park week after week and won the final.

The reds in 2011 suffered injury to outside backs predominantly but Horwill, Genia, Cooper and Ioane were players who played a lot and we won't he comp. In the next two years we suffer seriously due to both an increased amount of total injury experienced and the focal nature of those injuries i.e there were many of the players injured in one position e.g 10 in 2012.

This year the Reds have again suffered with injury which has contributed (though by no means solely) to a rubbish season.

My point is, a successful year, even with all the talent and preparation in place, is definitely significantly contingent on the injury gods smiling on you. There are injuries you can prevent and those that you can't really and you need to consider that fact when judging a players worth. Are they honestly prone to injury and there is a risk in signing them or have they just been terribly unlucky. A quick glance at a players playing history doesn't tell you that if you aren't a qualified medical or high level S and C professional.
 
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