Rebels 2016

[Highlander35]

Fuck it. Screw Jack, we should bring in Ruaridh Jackson for next season.

 

[fatprop]

I rate Debreczeni, I think he is the type a player you build a team around

 

[bloodred]

In the comparison between Stirzaker and Meehan, give me Stirzy any day. Both a bit Fiery but Stirzy more reliable, better pass, better options

 

[199madmave]

I read yesterday that Sam Lane is playing Shute shield. He has played with the Reds and Waratahs but has been out for quite a while with injury. Sam has a good pedigree, great rugby brain and a good boot. I would love to see him in the 10 jersey at the Rebels.

 

[GoMelbRebels]

I read yesterday that Sam Lane is playing Shute shield. He has played with the Reds and Waratahs but has been out for quite a while with injury. Sam has a good pedigree, great rugby brain and a good boot. I would love to see him in the 10 jersey at the Rebels.

I seem to recall Sam Lane playing for the Rays in the NRC last year.

 

[mst]

Debreczeni is of similar pedigree to Jooste. He played Australian Schoolboys and Under 20s.

Clearly Jooste could be a better overall talent in the long run (or could easily be worse) but it's not like they've plucked out a guy who wasn't amongst the best in his class instead of a guy who was.

Pedigree, pecking order and from where he was plucked or what pick he was is irrelevant. It about how he is performing on-field after, as you pointed out, about 25 games at this level and his progress or lack of it and the subsequent flow on effects of the team performance.

Rory Arnold starting playing 5 minutes ago! That's called talent and at times it being overlooked due to the old school mentality and ingrained thinking regarding pathway and pedigree.

Who knows, Highlander35 may be right about Ruaridh Jackson and its not unthinkable that if he is a natural talent, he could be the flyhalf at RWC in 2019.

I don't know the solution but the Rebels need to do something about there on-field performances and JDs performances appear centric to most discussions of what needs to improve.

 

[Braveheart81]

Pedigree, pecking order and from where he was plucked or what pick he was is irrelevant. It about how he is performing on-field after, as you pointed out, about 25 games at this level and his progress or lack of it and the subsequent flow on effects of the team performance.

Rory Arnold starting playing 5 minutes ago! That's called talent and at times it being overlooked due to the old school mentality and ingrained thinking regarding pathway and pedigree.

Arnold is three years older than Debreczeni and has a similar number of Super Rugby caps.

I just don't think the Rebels form is that attributable to Debreczeni. Certainly he needs to improve but I'd say he is the most promising fly half they currently have in their squad.

The pedigree is relevant because you were suggesting that the alternative is an even younger player with a similar level of success at the same ages is potentially a better alternative.

The reality is that there aren't 20 year old superstars waiting to be selected as starting 10s for Australian Super Rugby teams. Teams are routinely recruiting the best young options we have and trying to develop them into better players.

I don't think there are any silver bullets here in terms of solving all the problems.

 

[Highlander35]

Basically we can:

Use/develop another fly half within the squad
Use/develop another fly half within the local development or club system
Recruit a fly half from another States Super Squad
Recruit a fly half from another states development squad or club system
Convince an Aussie to come home from Japan or Europe
Recruit an International* fly half on a development contract
Recruit an International** fly half on a marquee contract
Recruit an International*** fly half on a marquee contract
Recruit an International**** fly half on a marquee contract

Bar Quade Cooper realising the truth that Melbourne>Brisbane, or a genuine Super star coming out of nowhere, I don't think any of those are both likely and get us a better stand off than Debreczeni.

* From the NPC, or Currie Cup, or one of the Pacific Islands
** From one of the other Super Rugby Nations
*** Hagan-like signing of European player on fringes of international set up
**** Slade, Carter, Pollard, Ford, Biggar, Russell, Sexton etc.

 

[Micheal]

You lot need to relax and take a step back. In the pre-season you guys were proclaiming Debreceni to be a bolter for the Wallabies squad this year, five games later you're all saying he needs to be replaced.

He's a young guy and he's in a patch of mediocre form. Give him time.

We often need to be reminded that we're a fickle bunch.

 

[mst]

Arnold is three years older than Debreczeni and has a similar number of Super Rugby caps. Yes- with no pedigree and started paying the game only a few years earlier; its not an age issue.

I just don't think the Rebels form is that attributable to Debreczeni. Certainly he needs to improve but I'd say he is the most promising fly half they currently have in their squad; based on the comments there seems to be sufficient to suggest otherwise. What that issue is, whether it be game plan, structures or him its hard to say, but its still JD centric. Most are basing it on his poor performance like his kicking, ball handling etc and performance in that particular position.

The pedigree is relevant because you were suggesting that the alternative is an even younger player with a similar level of success at the same ages is potentially a better alternative; Pedigree is irrelevant measure as an assessment of talent. Does pedigree and pathway outweigh natural talent? Does it guarantee on-field performance? In Melbourne right now there a players that could have natural abilities and talent that are being overlooked using that viewpoint and measure.

The reality is that there aren't 20 year old superstars waiting to be selected as starting 10s for Australian Super Rugby teams. Teams are routinely recruiting the best young options we have and trying to develop them into better players; Superstar at what - limited opportunity? No but there are plenty of players that need to given an opportunity to see what they can do rather than using the hypothetical measures, and things like pedigree etc etc. Even Handre Pollard initially didn't (and still doesn't) fit the traditional mould of a Saffa 10 as judged by the old school. The mindset has since changed.

I don't think there are any silver bullets here in terms of solving all the problems; because Australian Rugby has relied on the silver bullets too many times unwilling take the risks and start giving opportunities and developing players. As you mentioned above, there are a lot of 20's players that have already been judged on what - preconceptions! The reality is it will need hard work and some time. The alternative is rinse and repeat.

 

[Braveheart81]

Even Handre Pollard initiallydidn't (and still doesn't) fit the traditional mould of a Saffa 10 as judged by the old school. The mindset has since changed.

Pollard was identified at a young age and was World Rugby Junior Player of the Year. He was better than the traditional mould of a Saffa 10 and they knew it from an early age. He debuted for the Springboks very soon after he played the Under 20 World Cup (it could have been a matter of weeks).

The point I am making is that these young guys like Debreczeni, McIntyre, Jooste, Burton etc. have been our best young playmakers over the last few years. Add to that Jordan Jackson-Hope at the Brumbies, Andrew Deegan at the Tahs etc.

It isn't a case of identifying the wrong players or choosing the wrong type of player. Our options over the last few years simply haven't been as good as the best players of our competitors.

because Australian Rugby has relied on the silver bullets too many times unwilling take the risks and start giving opportunities and developing players. As you mentioned above, there are a lot of 20's players that have already been judged on what - preconceptions! The reality is it will need hard work and some time. The alternative is rinse and repeat.

I find this comment really strange. Isn't this the entire argument for continuing to develop Jack Debreczeni?

When someone younger comes through who is clearly better it will be quite obvious.

The players who are going to be playing test rugby within a couple of years are pretty obvious at the Under 20 World Cup. Sadly there haven't been a whole lot for Australia in the last couple of years, particularly when you're looking at flyhalf options.

 

[Highlander35]

Pollard debuted for the Springboks within 2 weeks of the JRWC. I remember, because it was against us on a non - international weekend, with about 8-10 domestic starters injured. Horrible horrible day, took the shine off the previous weeks win against the Argies.

 

[elementfreak]

I think JD will look a lot more comfortable with Little Red passing the ball at him instead of BIP. Not saying that BIP has played poorly, but JD looks a lot better when running onto a pass in front of him instead of having to check his run and catch the ball above his shoulder/head.

 

[HighPlainsDrifter]

I wonder if getting JD to do a few training runs in at centre may help him improve his customer service skills to his centres....know your customer ! He has tons of potential .

 

[Dumbledore]

I think JD will look a lot more comfortable with Little Red passing the ball at him instead of BIP. Not saying that BIP has played poorly, but JD looks a lot better when running onto a pass in front of him instead of having to check his run and catch the ball above his shoulder/head.

Nailed it. Exactly what I've been saying. I think it's a combination of that and his recent injury history that's got him looking so tentative.

 

[mst]

Pollard was identified at a young age and was World Rugby Junior Player of the Year. He was better than the traditional mould of a Saffa 10 and they knew it from an early age. He debuted for the Springboks very soon after he played the Under 20 World Cup (it could have been a matter of weeks). Interesting representation of history. Most media article / bio's suggest he was not on the radar until his late teens, and even then in the under 20's , because he didn't fit in to the traditional flyhalf mould they ran him at inside centre. SA are still counting the blessing of having 8+ injuries that forced their hand to give him a go otherwise who knows if we would know his name.

The point I am making is that these young guys like Debreczeni, McIntyre, Jooste, Burton etc. have been our best young playmakers over the last few years. Add to that Jordan Jackson-Hope at the Brumbies, Andrew Deegan at the Tahs etc.

It isn't a case of identifying the wrong players or choosing the wrong type of player. Our options over the last few years simply haven't been as good as the best players of our competitors. So what your saying is the above names you list are the best of a bad bunch? I don't think the Super Rugby coaches who have them in their programs may agree with you assessment. Why would up and coming players be as good as our best player in the competition? Wow, you love to judge a book by its cover apparently.

I don't think there are any silver bullets here in terms of solving all the problems; because Australian Rugby has relied on the silver bullets too many times unwilling take the risks and start giving opportunities and developing players. As you mentioned above, there are a lot of 20's players that have already been judged on what - preconceptions! The reality is it will need hard work and some time. The alternative is rinse and repeat.

I find this comment really strange. Isn't this the entire argument for continuing to develop Jack Debreczeni?
As usual you try to skew the context and argue semantics to your convenience. Lets put the whole comment entirely back unedited, including your initial comment and the context is clear. It was a response exclusively to your comment, not to the overall topic. Now to simplify it in terms of the conversation, most people understand that even is you found a good replacement for JD, it would take time, as in at least several games for them to settle in to the team, and the team to learn them. The other part is that you need to have a development process in place, a plan "B". Do the Rebels have this? If not its a bit late to start and with Harris leaving what are the options?



Additionally the time question is the biggest conundrum for the Rebels. His performance versus the team performance - can you continue to have losing results while you continue developing him?

When someone younger comes through who is clearly better it will be quite obvious. This approach, as discussed on Rugby 360 is one that needs to be avoided. There are many players who star at a lesser level and failed when they move up and visa- versa. Maá Nonu is an example of a player who was patchy at Super level and fantastic at international level. based your your methods he would have never made the All Blacks.

The players who are going to be playing test rugby within a couple of years are pretty obvious at the Under 20 World Cup. Sadly there haven't been a whole lot for Australia in the last couple of years, particularly when you're looking at flyhalf options.

Some people are habitually predictable in the institutionalised thinking and will invariably return to their default position. Again I refer you the discussion about identifying players early (like the discussion on Rugby 360) and remarkable considering you claim the stocks are low, you yourself list a a hand full, and that list is not exhaustive. You also fall back to your default silver bullet mantra by again looking and wanting superstars to give you that walk from the 20's which is exceptionally rare - like a silver bullet.

 

[Braveheart81]

Interesting representation of history. Most media article / bio's suggest he was not on the radar until his late teens, and even then in the under 20's , because he didn't fit in to the traditional flyhalf mould they ran him at inside centre. SA are still counting the blessing of having 8+ injuries that forced their hand to give him a go otherwise who knows if we would know his name.

What are you talking about?

He played age level reps from under 13s and then played South African Schoolboys.

He played three Junior World Cup Tournaments before winning World Rugby Junior Player of the Year in his third one. He's surely one of the most decorated junior rugby players in South African history.

What 8+ injuries are you talking about that forced their hand?

Some people are habitually predictable in the institutionalised thinking and will invariably return to their default position. Again I refer you the discussion about identifying players early (like the discussion on Rugby 360) and remarkable considering you claim the stocks are low, you yourself list a a hand full, and that list is not exhaustive. You also fall back to your default silver bullet mantra by again looking and wanting superstars to give you that walk from the 20's which is exceptionally rare - like a silver bullet.

My point was that amongst this list of players, none have been close to as good as the likes of Handre Pollard, George Ford, Damian McKenzie, Joe Ford, Otere Black etc. who have come through the under 20s and excelled in recent years.

All of our good young playmaking options are being given chances to various degrees.

Surely the low risk option would be selecting the experienced guys out of club rugby who can lead a team round the park but certainly don't have a high ceiling and will never bring particular success to a team.

If you are so adamant that I have your argument wrong, can you please suggest a few players who you think teams should be giving more of a crack at 10 and why they are better options?

 

[Highlander35]

Lambie and Goosen were injured. Morne Steyn had to come back to France as it wasn't an International weekend, and that was when Frans Steyn was having the pay spat with SARU. All those opened up an opportunity for Pollard to get his first Springboks start.

He'd made Western Province teams since U13s. He played for the Bulls in the Vodacom Cup in 2012, Currie Cup in 2013 and the Soup in 2014, playing in the JRWC, or JWC or whatever it was being called, all those years.

He didn't come out of nowhere.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes, Springboks were injured which gave him a test debut earlier than would have otherwise happened.

Claiming that he didn't fit the mould and it's only through some sort of luck that he was discovered is a massive reinvention of history.

 

[swingpass]

most and Braveheart perhaps you two can start your own thread.


at the moment JD is really all the Rebels have, Hawkins might be OK, but at present Jack is worth persisting with. He is really missing Mike Harris to help with the play making role because Inman is a one trick pony, (pretty good trick albeit), Ellison is doing his stuff wider off the ruck and Placid is greener than Debrezcini.

there are no real standout 10's in Victorian club rugby, Lloyd J has been piloting the the premiership side around. I don't know about interstate but Sam Lane is about the only person who might be considered. Others in Shute Shield or Hospital cup would surely have gotten a gig elsewhere if any good. Hawkins and Asquith are the others at the Rebels, but both are new to the set up, one has played 3 games at Super level and the other none. The rebels simply have to persist with JD for this season at least. Only in NZ do fully formed fly halfs spring from the undergrowth.