Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
Fuck it. Screw Jack, we should bring in Ruaridh Jackson for next season.
I read yesterday that Sam Lane is playing Shute shield. He has played with the Reds and Waratahs but has been out for quite a while with injury. Sam has a good pedigree, great rugby brain and a good boot. I would love to see him in the 10 jersey at the Rebels.
Debreczeni is of similar pedigree to Jooste. He played Australian Schoolboys and Under 20s.
Clearly Jooste could be a better overall talent in the long run (or could easily be worse) but it's not like they've plucked out a guy who wasn't amongst the best in his class instead of a guy who was.
Pedigree, pecking order and from where he was plucked or what pick he was is irrelevant. It about how he is performing on-field after, as you pointed out, about 25 games at this level and his progress or lack of it and the subsequent flow on effects of the team performance.
Rory Arnold starting playing 5 minutes ago! That's called talent and at times it being overlooked due to the old school mentality and ingrained thinking regarding pathway and pedigree.
Arnold is three years older than Debreczeni and has a similar number of Super Rugby caps. Yes- with no pedigree and started paying the game only a few years earlier; its not an age issue.
I just don't think the Rebels form is that attributable to Debreczeni. Certainly he needs to improve but I'd say he is the most promising fly half they currently have in their squad; based on the comments there seems to be sufficient to suggest otherwise. What that issue is, whether it be game plan, structures or him its hard to say, but its still JD centric. Most are basing it on his poor performance like his kicking, ball handling etc and performance in that particular position.
The pedigree is relevant because you were suggesting that the alternative is an even younger player with a similar level of success at the same ages is potentially a better alternative; Pedigree is irrelevant measure as an assessment of talent. Does pedigree and pathway outweigh natural talent? Does it guarantee on-field performance? In Melbourne right now there a players that could have natural abilities and talent that are being overlooked using that viewpoint and measure.
The reality is that there aren't 20 year old superstars waiting to be selected as starting 10s for Australian Super Rugby teams. Teams are routinely recruiting the best young options we have and trying to develop them into better players; Superstar at what - limited opportunity? No but there are plenty of players that need to given an opportunity to see what they can do rather than using the hypothetical measures, and things like pedigree etc etc. Even Handre Pollard initially didn't (and still doesn't) fit the traditional mould of a Saffa 10 as judged by the old school. The mindset has since changed.
I don't think there are any silver bullets here in terms of solving all the problems; because Australian Rugby has relied on the silver bullets too many times unwilling take the risks and start giving opportunities and developing players. As you mentioned above, there are a lot of 20's players that have already been judged on what - preconceptions! The reality is it will need hard work and some time. The alternative is rinse and repeat.
Even Handre Pollard initiallydidn't (and still doesn't) fit the traditional mould of a Saffa 10 as judged by the old school. The mindset has since changed.
because Australian Rugby has relied on the silver bullets too many times unwilling take the risks and start giving opportunities and developing players. As you mentioned above, there are a lot of 20's players that have already been judged on what - preconceptions! The reality is it will need hard work and some time. The alternative is rinse and repeat.
Nailed it. Exactly what I've been saying. I think it's a combination of that and his recent injury history that's got him looking so tentative.I think JD will look a lot more comfortable with Little Red passing the ball at him instead of BIP. Not saying that BIP has played poorly, but JD looks a lot better when running onto a pass in front of him instead of having to check his run and catch the ball above his shoulder/head.
Some people are habitually predictable in the institutionalised thinking and will invariably return to their default position. Again I refer you the discussion about identifying players early (like the discussion on Rugby 360) and remarkable considering you claim the stocks are low, you yourself list a a hand full, and that list is not exhaustive. You also fall back to your default silver bullet mantra by again looking and wanting superstars to give you that walk from the 20's which is exceptionally rare - like a silver bullet.Pollard was identified at a young age and was World Rugby Junior Player of the Year. He was better than the traditional mould of a Saffa 10 and they knew it from an early age. He debuted for the Springboks very soon after he played the Under 20 World Cup (it could have been a matter of weeks). Interesting representation of history. Most media article / bio's suggest he was not on the radar until his late teens, and even then in the under 20's , because he didn't fit in to the traditional flyhalf mould they ran him at inside centre. SA are still counting the blessing of having 8+ injuries that forced their hand to give him a go otherwise who knows if we would know his name.
The point I am making is that these young guys like Debreczeni, McIntyre, Jooste, Burton etc. have been our best young playmakers over the last few years. Add to that Jordan Jackson-Hope at the Brumbies, Andrew Deegan at the Tahs etc.
It isn't a case of identifying the wrong players or choosing the wrong type of player. Our options over the last few years simply haven't been as good as the best players of our competitors. So what your saying is the above names you list are the best of a bad bunch? I don't think the Super Rugby coaches who have them in their programs may agree with you assessment. Why would up and coming players be as good as our best player in the competition? Wow, you love to judge a book by its cover apparently.
I don't think there are any silver bullets here in terms of solving all the problems; because Australian Rugby has relied on the silver bullets too many times unwilling take the risks and start giving opportunities and developing players. As you mentioned above, there are a lot of 20's players that have already been judged on what - preconceptions! The reality is it will need hard work and some time. The alternative is rinse and repeat.
I find this comment really strange. Isn't this the entire argument for continuing to develop Jack Debreczeni?
As usual you try to skew the context and argue semantics to your convenience. Lets put the whole comment entirely back unedited, including your initial comment and the context is clear. It was a response exclusively to your comment, not to the overall topic. Now to simplify it in terms of the conversation, most people understand that even is you found a good replacement for JD, it would take time, as in at least several games for them to settle in to the team, and the team to learn them. The other part is that you need to have a development process in place, a plan "B". Do the Rebels have this? If not its a bit late to start and with Harris leaving what are the options?
Additionally the time question is the biggest conundrum for the Rebels. His performance versus the team performance - can you continue to have losing results while you continue developing him?
When someone younger comes through who is clearly better it will be quite obvious. This approach, as discussed on Rugby 360 is one that needs to be avoided. There are many players who star at a lesser level and failed when they move up and visa- versa. Maá Nonu is an example of a player who was patchy at Super level and fantastic at international level. based your your methods he would have never made the All Blacks.
The players who are going to be playing test rugby within a couple of years are pretty obvious at the Under 20 World Cup. Sadly there haven't been a whole lot for Australia in the last couple of years, particularly when you're looking at flyhalf options.
Interesting representation of history. Most media article / bio's suggest he was not on the radar until his late teens, and even then in the under 20's , because he didn't fit in to the traditional flyhalf mould they ran him at inside centre. SA are still counting the blessing of having 8+ injuries that forced their hand to give him a go otherwise who knows if we would know his name.
Some people are habitually predictable in the institutionalised thinking and will invariably return to their default position. Again I refer you the discussion about identifying players early (like the discussion on Rugby 360) and remarkable considering you claim the stocks are low, you yourself list a a hand full, and that list is not exhaustive. You also fall back to your default silver bullet mantra by again looking and wanting superstars to give you that walk from the 20's which is exceptionally rare - like a silver bullet.