Rebels 2016

[mst]

And seriously, if you've got stats that can accurately quantify flyhalf performance I'd love to see them. Hell I'd pay to see them, would be an incredible resource.

Plenty of indicative stats available with a quick google depending on what measures you are wanting to look at. It does provided you with a fairly clear indication of the level of involvement of a flyhalf in a game and something from which to measure.

The other method is simply read how many punters in the forums didn't think his performance was up to scratch and that should give you a pretty good idea.

Some to consider: Big unit JD v a dwarf E Jantjies (last 4 games)
16 Carries 25
84 Metres 58
1 Clean Breaks 1
3 Defenders Beaten 5
2 Offloads 7
2 Try Assists 3
95 Passes 117
35 Open play kicks 18

 

[I like to watch]

Size trumps performance at the Rebels,so Jack D is safe unless he gets smaller

 

[GoMelbRebels]

Size trumps performance at the Rebels,so Jack D is safe unless he gets smaller

I was always told size doesn't matter. Damn, she lied to me...

When Jack is on target with his kicking he is an asset - like v the Reds the other week, that huge penalty kick v the Chiefs last year and he almost won it for us v the Tahs last year in Sydney with his kicking. OK, not many examples I suppose.

 

[mst]

I was always told size doesn't matter. Damn, she lied to me.

When Jack is on target with his kicking he is an asset - like v the Reds the other week, that huge penalty kick v the Chiefs last year and he almost won it for us v the Tahs last year in Sydney with his kicking. OK, not many examples I suppose.

Yeah, in addition to the size thing, I think you might want to consider the merits of having a J Wilkinson in your team!

 

[Tex]

Plenty of indicative stats available with a quick google depending on what measures you are wanting to look at. It does provided you with a fairly clear indication of the level of involvement of a flyhalf in a game and something from which to measure.

The other method is simply read how many punters in the forums didn't think his performance was up to scratch and that should give you a pretty good idea.

Some to consider: Big unit JD v a dwarf E Jantjies (last 4 games)
16 Carries 25
84 Metres 58
1 Clean Breaks 1
3 Defenders Beaten 5
2 Offloads 7
2 Try Assists 3
95 Passes 117
35 Open play kicks 18

Those numbers would support a contention of better effectiveness for either player, imo.

JD has carried to the line fewer times but made more metres; EJ (Eddie Jones) has beaten more defenders when he's carried (no surprises there - he's got lightning feet); EJ (Eddie Jones) has offloaded more, but only created one try more than JD.

I think Dumbledore pointed out how JD looks great with the extra space and time on offer in the NRC and how it hasn't translated into the same sort of influence in S18.

I think it's yet another case of premature speculation and a lack of patience from fans. We expect a Carter/Larkham but aren't willing to let those players grow.

Give him time.

 

[swingpass]

i agree we need to give him time, it will be interesting to see if his performance improves with Stirzaker inside him, i have not been as critical as some with regards to Meehan's passing, has seemed all right to me.

the speed of ball from the ruck was very slow in the last game and neither Meehan nor Debrezcini had many options available outside of them.

we have to have patience with the young padawan and he needs to concentrate harder and not vague out.

 

[Braveheart81]

Seems like a bit of an apples and oranges comparison at this stage.

Jantjies is 25, has played 2 tests and 60 something Super Rugby games.

Debreczeni is 22 and has played about 30 games.

I think Debreczeni needs more opportunity before he can be fairly judged. I think most people rate this ability quite highly. There are certainly elements of his game that need improvement but he does plenty of things very well.

 

[GoMelbRebels]

The problem in this day and age is everyone wants instant results. Something doesn't work after a couple of times, abandon it and move on to the next thing (just look at how many PMs we have had over the past few years!).

I say, stick with Jack!

 

[Dumbledore]

Plenty of indicative stats available with a quick google depending on what measures you are wanting to look at. It does provided you with a fairly clear indication of the level of involvement of a flyhalf in a game and something from which to measure.

The other method is simply read how many punters in the forums didn't think his performance was up to scratch and that should give you a pretty good idea.

Some to consider: Big unit JD v a dwarf E Jantjies (last 4 games)
16 Carries 25
84 Metres 58
1 Clean Breaks 1
3 Defenders Beaten 5
2 Offloads 7
2 Try Assists 3
95 Passes 117
35 Open play kicks 18

It doesn't tell you anything about context though. What was the gameplan, who was the opponent, was he making the correct decisions, how many of those passes were to advantage, what sort of ball was he getting? It tells you basic involvement numbers but that's it. There's no way to look at those stats and tell who's playing better.

There's plenty of criticism that can be levelled at Debreczeni. He's got a seriously poor medium-long passing game. He struggles to deal when he's on the back foot and defences are in his face. His kicking is way too inconsistent, especially considering how good it could be. Frankly, he should never have got the hype he did.

He needs far more help, inside and out, than he's currently getting. I think he needs more help from the coaching staff as well. If there was ever a player who needs a year or two in the ITM it's him.

He's had a poor start to the year, but I think it's premature to start saying he's a complete bust and it's time to look elsewhere.

 

[mst]

It doesn't tell you anything about context though. What was the gameplan, who was the opponent, was he making the correct decisions, how many of those passes were to advantage, what sort of ball was he getting? It tells you basic involvement numbers but that's it. There's no way to look at those stats and tell who's playing better.

There's plenty of criticism that can be levelled at Debreczeni. He's got a seriously poor medium-long passing game. He struggles to deal when he's on the back foot and defences are in his face. His kicking is way too inconsistent, especially considering how good it could be. Frankly, he should never have got the hype he did.

He needs far more help, inside and out, than he's currently getting. I think he needs more help from the coaching staff as well. If there was ever a player who needs a year or two in the ITM it's him.

He's had a poor start to the year, but I think it's premature to start saying he's a complete bust and it's time to look elsewhere.

So the Rebels should persist another season or two and settle for mid table results?

 

[GoMelbRebels]

So the Rebels should persist another season or two and settle for mid table results?

But if you go and make big changes you also run the risk of going backwards.

 

[Braveheart81]

So the Rebels should persist another season or two and settle for mid table results?

Who are they going to recruit otherwise? Would it lead to a better outcome in the next two years that continuing to develop Debreczeni?

If they pay big dollars to recruit a new 10, who do they have to give up? Would it make them a better overall team?

 

[mst]

But if you go and make big changes you also run the risk of going backwards.

And if you don't?

Welcome to the world of sports. No guarantees and a risk reward concept.

Two traits that Aussie rugby does to its detriment. One I'd being risk adverse, so much so it's ingrained in our style of game play. The other is the need to find a ready made solution which is demonstrated by the first thought being let's buy an experienced instant fix.

But most of that rhetoric comes from the old school thinking.

Tahs are a perfect example. Cheika ingrained a high risk high reward game plan in to them and it yielded results. The old school still do not want to take that type of attacking risk thus why attack in our game is still limited. Have a look at our tries compared to the Kiwis.

Player-wise it's the same. Tahs apparently are suffering a player crisis. Force their hand to put the "no choice but" rookies on the field and you find things like a Holloway etc.

Right now the Rebels need to find a few potential flyhalfs, get them competing for a spot and if mid season it's looking grim bring them in and let them all including JD have at it for a spot each week.

Risk? If no one steps up you are back at step one. If they do well Rebels will benefit. Risk reward.

 

[diwi10]

And if you don't?



Welcome to the world of sports. No guarantees and a risk reward concept.



Two traits that Aussie rugby does to its detriment. One I'd being risk adverse, so much so it's ingrained in our style of game play. The other is the need to find a ready made solution which is demonstrated by the first though being let's buy an experienced instant fix.



But most of that rhetoric comes from the old school thinking.



Tahs are a perfect example. Cheika ingrained s high risk high reward game plan in to then and it yielded results. The old school still do want to take that type of attacking risk thus why attack in our game is still limited. Have a look at our tries compared to the Kiwis.



Player wise it's the same. Tahs apparently are suffering a player crisis. Force their hand to put the "no choice but" rookies on the field and you find things like a Holloway etc.



Right now the Rebels need to find a few potential flyhalfs, get them competing for s spot and if mid season it's looking grim bring them in and let them all including JD have at it for a spot each week.



Risk? If no one steps up you are back at step one. If they do well Rebels will benefit. Risk reward.

MST
did JD take your spot in the juniors or did he take your girl
give the kid a brake his not the one talking up future Wallabies
played 5 games 2014, season 2015 & 4 games 2016 as for your stats
made 2 line breaks vs BULLS or are you just another TROLL!!
That likes to bag people because they could never play the game
LOL

 

[GoMelbRebels]

Who'd want to be a Rugby coach, right?!

 

[mst]

Who'd want to be a Rugby coach, right?!

Yeah. The other side of the coin is what happens if the quest to find fresh blood unearths a diamond? Especially if you have a "Joost" or similar that is waiting for a shot and then gets scooped up.

Its always hard as there is the emotional attachment to players which is natural. Competition for JD might be good, so could development space. But irrespective of what the solution, the big questions that need to be answered is how to improve the results.


I do worry if Dumbledore is correct and he needs all that he said, including about 2 years of ITM.

Sometimes we search for the next superstar but if you look at Foley for example, the simple, reliable and even predictable non-flashy platform he provides feeds good backs that create attack and tries. Rebels have a very good stock of backs that need more ball in hand and a little more game management.

 

[Dumbledore]

So the Rebels should persist another season or two and settle for mid table results?

Do you really think they're just a game managing flyhalf away? I don't. The Rebels have a stable of one-paced, one-dimensional, backs who don't work nearly hard enough in support, and an undersized forward pack who play way above their weight.

You seem to be arguing both sides of the toss. Wanting teams to take more risks with players, but then advocating Debreczeni get moved on for a safer option? He's played a season and a half of Super Rugby at the moment, and has shown flashes. If they can get him going, and form a combination with Stirzaker, then they're set for the next 5+ years. That's what every team is chasing, look at how well Smith and Sopoaga work together now and the difference that's made.

Ideal world, Foley would have honoured the deal he signed and Debreczeni could have sat on the bench for a couple of years and learned. Instead he was thrown in the deep end and is having some struggles - which is to be expected. But the Rebels are willing to suffer somewhat in the short term in the hopes that if he reaches his potential they're going to be looking at sustained success.

I hope they do bring in an exciting young flyhalf or two to compete with Debreczeni, but they don't exactly grow on trees. They're hard to find and teams tend to hang on to them for that reason.

 

[mst]

Do you really think they're just a game managing flyhalf away? I don't. The Rebels have a stable of one-paced, one-dimensional, backs who don't work nearly hard enough in support, and an undersized forward pack who play way above their weight.

You seem to be arguing both sides of the toss. Wanting teams to take more risks with players, but then advocating Debreczeni get moved on for a safer option? He's played a season and a half of Super Rugby at the moment, and has shown flashes. If they can get him going, and form a combination with Stirzaker, then they're set for the next 5+ years. That's what every team is chasing, look at how well Smith and Sopoaga work together now and the difference that's made.

Ideal world, Foley would have honoured the deal he signed and Debreczeni could have sat on the bench for a couple of years and learned. Instead he was thrown in the deep end and is having some struggles - which is to be expected. But the Rebels are willing to suffer somewhat in the short term in the hopes that if he reaches his potential they're going to be looking at sustained success.

I hope they do bring in an exciting young flyhalf or two to compete with Debreczeni, but they don't exactly grow on trees. They're hard to find and teams tend to hang on to them for that reason.

Help me out here Dumbledore, I am confused at my role in this discussion. I though I was supposed to be playing the part of the critic?

 

[Dumbledore]

Help me out here Dumbledore, I am confused at my role in this discussion. I though I was supposed to be playing the part of the critic?

Ha well that's the thing of it, I don't really like Debreczeni, he's not my kind of player at all. But I like the process.

They found a young, cheap, talented, guy with skills almost uniquely suited to the gameplan they're trying to implement. Can't ask for much more than that from a recruitment standpoint.

If you judge him as a work in progress, rather than as a Wallaby in waiting, you'll be much happier. He's still a long way off, but the Rebels gain absolutely nothing by benching him for Hawkins or similar at this point.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yeah. The other side of the coin is what happens if the quest to find fresh blood unearths a diamond? Especially if you have a "Joost" or similar that is waiting for a shot and then gets scooped up.

Debreczeni is of similar pedigree to Jooste. He played Australian Schoolboys and Under 20s.

Clearly Jooste could be a better overall talent in the long run (or could easily be worse) but it's not like they've plucked out a guy who wasn't amongst the best in his class instead of a guy who was.