Queensland Reds 2009

[naza]

A Saffa 7? Isn't that an oxymoron? Might as well try to cross-train Houston.

6's and 8's, yes, 7's.....not so much.

At first I thought you were making a joke and saying we should be looking at a Saffa 6 to fill our openside hole - but surely you don't really believe they don't produce good opensides.

Rassie Erasmus and Reuben Kruger were pretty handy. Corne Krige not so much.

Best young openside prospect for the Reds would have to be Sydney Uni's Jono Jenkins. He's really only knocked over his first full year in first grade but is the best 7 in club rugby and has the most upside. In terms of guys who could go on and play for Australia, I just don't see Duncan, Brock, or McGann going that far. Jenkins has the athleticism and attitude to potentially play at that level. Reds should sign him up.

His club captain, Tim Davidson, has mostly played 6 & 8 and isn't so much a specialist openside but could be an option. He's quick enough, a menace at the ruck, has an incredible workrate and never had the build for 8 when he was with the Force.

 

[TOCC]

jeez i wish the Reds had signed Pocock, if he was in the team it would be quite a good team, unfortunately openside is just as important as the 5/8 with the ELV's and unless we get a decent one then were screwed.

I notice people keep leaving Vaalu out of there starting side, i personally havent seen much from him but the wrap that Latham gave him was quite good. If he is as good as Latham says then i am willing to see him as starting fullback, it also solves the issue of having a rookie at fullback.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good call on Jono Jenkins but it's a bit early to consider him. I rate brother Ed as a winger also.

Yeah a pity about Tim Davidson being a bit light for that position for the Super14 because he has all the attributes you need for the 8 position. Although I've seen him with 7 on his back for Uni he is not a fetcher and I wouldn't recommend him to Queensland unless they thought they needed cover at 8 and 6.

I think that Tim may go back to the farm.

Talking about brothers: I see that David Pocock's bother Steven, also a backrower, is playing for the Queensland White team in the U/16 Championships currently underway at Nudgee College. This is the 2nds team, but he could be one of the younger boys and maybe the Reds should stalk him next year to see how he's going.

 

[Scotty]

Good idea Lee, and by signing up his brother, we may be able to eventually lure David back to play with him. :thumb

 

[the gambler]

Good call on Jono Jenkins but it's a bit early to consider him. I rate brother Ed as a winger also.

Yeah a pity about Tim Davidson being a bit light for that position for the Super14 because he has all the attributes you need for the 8 position. Although I've seen him with 7 on his back for Uni he is not a fetcher and I wouldn't recommend him to Queensland unless they thought they needed cover at 8 and 6.

I think that Tim may go back to the farm.

Davo played at 7 when the Waratahs came within a fraction of beating the Crusaders during the shocking 2007 season. Not a specialist fetcher but can certainly handle his own there if needed. Personally I would have preferred Davidson to Fava at the Waratahs but I dont think he is the right fit for the Reds.

Could well be a year or two overseas before going to the farm. Maybe even a stint at Oxford or Cambridge given he has just finished his masters.

 

[formeropenside]

Good idea Lee, and by signing up his brother, we may be able to eventually lure David back to play with him. :thumb

Traitorous bastard had his chance to come back home already and decided not to.

 

[Lee Grant]

gambler

Yeah I remember that game now. That was after Waugh got injured in the 2nd (?) game of the S14 season in South Africa.

Beau Robinson got his shot at the 7 jersey, then Lyons of all people because the Bulls were in town; Tim got a game against the Crusaders but it ended up with Beau IIRR.

Geez that was a dire year. Waugh's absence wasn't the only reason why the Tahs had a crap season but it brought home to us how important he was at that time. Since then Beau has stepped up - but I digress.

 

[naza]

Good call on Jono Jenkins but it's a bit early to consider him. I rate brother Ed as a winger also.

You have to snap them up quick these days. Pocock was signed out of school. Jenkins has played about as much first grade as prop Jerry Yanunawhatever. Who else do you suggest ?

Pretty sure Davidson said in the leadup to the club finals that if no S14 franchise snapped him up, he'd play overseas.

 

[Lee Grant]

You have to snap them up quick these days. Pocock was signed out of school.

Geez if you saw him as a schoolboy player it wouldn't be a surprise. He was like a man playing with boys. He hurt kids.

He's about the only exception to my belief that boys shouldn't play professional rugby the year after leaving school - for the reason that their bodies haven't been prepared physically enough to withstand the bashing they are going to get, or attempt to give.

In the last couple of years I haven't seen so many kids play Super rugby a couple of months after leaving school. It's mostly because of Oz player depth being thin due to having to man a 4th Super team.

Though I like watching young kids like Beale, Cooper, O'Connor and To'omua play just after they walk out of the school gates for the last time, I don't agree with the principle of it and my heart is always in my mouth.

Never worried about Pocock though. Not a bit.

 

[naza]

David Lyons played for the Waratahs straight out of school before he played club footy. Ironically, he was probably at his best physically as a 106 kg 18 year old.

 

[TOCC]

Reds team for first match:

15 Brendan Vaalu
14 Peter Hynes
13 Morgan Turinui
12 Berrick Barnes
11 Digby Ione
10 Quade Cooper
9 Ben Lucas
8 Leroy Houston
7 Poutasi Luafutu
6 Hugh McMeniman
5 James Horwill (c)
4 Van Humphries
3 Danya Edwards
2 Sean Hardman
1 Greg Holmes

16 Saia Fiangaa
17 Laurie Weekes
18 Scott Higginbottham
19 Ezra Taylor
20 Will Genia
21 Charlie Fetoia
22 Mark McLinden

There are no debutants in the 1st XV, but a fair few on the reserves bench, hard to leave out Toua and Davies, but both are so young and they will get the chance.

The biggest issue i have with the team is mainly the backline, whilst they are the best players i just dont think they suit each other, Lucas - Cooper - Barnes is a good combo, i just have issues with Turinui in the centers, i dont think he offers that much in the position. IMHO we would be better off with someone like Ioane in the centres and someone else like Davies or Vaalu on the wing.

There are too many distributors in the backline and not enough players to go for the gaps, we need a big strong crashball runner and speed on the wings to complement the lucas-cooper-barnes combo, Turnui just doesnt fit that profile.

 

[RugbyReg]

I prefer Morgan there. I thought he was playing some great footy towards the end of the comp.
But if he was to be injured I'd have Vaalu, Davies or Fetoia at 13 before Ione.

Perhaps harsh on Diggers considering some of the distribution skills he showed for Aus A, but I can't see him anywhere but wing.

 

[Lee Grant]

Agree Nod,

Qld has to use Turinui come what may until that time when he becomes a defensive liability.

Don't know about Ioane as anything but a winger either and even there I have to question his usefulness under the ELVs.

We have all seen the effect of the constraint on kicking the ball out on the full if the ball has been put back over the 22. It requires players to kick the ball down field more and not out. Wingers have to chase the kicks of the fullback more than before but it also requires them to return serve more with the boot if the fullback has already gone down field.

Ioane was deficient in this respect under standard law so the ELVs are not going to improve his lot. Having said that, I was trying to think whether or not it was obviously the case in the S14 this year that Ioane was caught out as I theorised, but I can't remember; so that is probably a good thing.

Though I forget a lot of stuff - including Kepu playing THP against Tonga for Oz A. I was at the game and still forgot.

 

[Spook]

I reckon Ioane will blossom under Deans. He could be a super player.

 

[Scotty]

We have all seen the effect of the constraint on kicking the ball out on the full if the ball has been put back over the 22. It requires players to kick the ball down field more and not out. Wingers have to chase the kicks of the fullback more than before but it also requires them to return serve more with the boot if the fullback has already gone down field.

Ioane was deficient in this respect under standard law so the ELVs are not going to improve his lot. Having said that, I was trying to think whether or not it was obviously the case in the S14 this year that Ioane was caught out as I theorised, but I can't remember; so that is probably a good thing.

I understand your theory behind the comments on Ioane, Lee, but S14 had shown less kicking than the 3N did, by fullbacks and wings just outside their 22. If the Reds are able to support in numbers, we may actually see Ioane choose to run more than kick, and therefore see a result that the ELVs were looking for with this law change.

 

[Lee Grant]

But he still has to learn how to kick the ball long as all wingers have to as substitute fullbacks on a play- even if none of the ELVs become law.

I remember him in 2007 electing to run a few times for the Force when a kick was appropriate, and he got caught.

It is just as bad for guys to kick all the time when the run is on, but it doesn't make Ioane's limitation any less problematic.

 

[Scotty]

Agreed, but it doesn't necessarily have that much to do with the ELVs. And for the last 8-10 years the winger's ability to kick has been a lot less of a requirement than it was previously. Sailor and Tuqiri amongst others attest to that.

 

[RugbyReg]

Deans has the backs (might just be back 3?) Playing some sort of kicking game. Not sure of the specifics but it basically includes all sorts of kicks, grubbers to bombs to clearance to chips with points awarded for achieving certain outcomes (distance, accuracy etc). At the start of the international season at least Turner was the best (at about 65 pnts I think). Diggers was last, somewhat unsurprisingly. Good to see Deans hasn't given up hope thought. Ione can learn a lot from him.

Incidentally, Robbie expects all the backs to be scoring better than 80

 

[Lee Grant]

Agreed, but it doesn't necessarily have that much to do with the ELVs.

Correct, as I indicated when I said that Digby has to improve that area even if the ELVs don't become law - but problems from an inability to kick from hand well are magnified under the ELVs. The opposite will also come true if the kicking ELV becomes law. Wingers who have good long kicking games will be coveted more by coaches than wingers who are average in that department - but they'll probably have to pay them more.

And for the last 8-10 years the winger's ability to kick has been a lot less of a requirement than it was previously. Sailor and Tuqiri amongst others attest to that.

Don't know that it has been less of a requirement in that period. Sailor's inability at kicking was well known. He made Wallabies teams not because of that inability, but despite it. If Ioane doesn't improve his kicking from hand he may also get picked despite it.

Tuqiri's kicking out of hand is not brilliant, but not too bad.

A French TV commentator who works for the English outfit that broadcasts some of the Top 14 games made the comment on the weekend that even midfielders will be more valuable under the kicking ELV if they can kick from hand better than a fellow who is average - or words to that effect. I think he is right and in 10 years time when we are judging players from even 7 up ;D one of the things we will include in our discussions will be their ability to kick from hand under the kicking ELV. Maybe even the 2 also if he a loose type of player like Keith Wood.


Noddy

That kicking game of Deans shows some of the lateral thinking that he has. I'm not surprised that Digby was last in that kicking game either but am also glad that Dingo hasn't given up on him and picked him to tour. Digby has other wonderful attributes, and if you watch him up close you can see that he has an abounding love for contact and the game itself.

 

[naza]

I like that they're working on a variation of kicks instead of just force 'em backs. Also, where we need to improve in our kicking game is contesting the kicks.

And the training should be role focused, eg: Outside centres should practice the grubber - if the pass isn't on, the grubber in behind with the winger chasing is always a good option.