• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

Higgers to the Rebels

Status
Not open for further replies.

Troy

Jim Clark (26)
I'm guessing a lot of the frustration in this tread isn't purely aimed at the rebels rather that there are a few different tangents coming in here.

Besides the obvious headline to the thread, there's also another thread relating to the salary cap and does it/doesn't it apply to the Rebels, and that's just fueling this thread.

The Brumbies and Rebels are probably my second teams so although gutted to see him go, do wish him and the Rebels well.

NOW if it had been to the Tahs......;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
As much as I enjoy this thread, how is QLD gonna react if Cooper signs with the Tahs.

Player movement is just fact these days, it's gonna happen, gotta roll with it, supporting the jersey not the player is a permanent factor of professional sport.

Also the negativity against the rebels is pretty uncalled for, NSW lost Beale to them last year, the force lost OConnor, both those players were far more important to there franchises than Higgers is. Time moves on, opportunities arise from it. Delve leaving, Higgers moving provides another Australian with the chance to play full time starting supeRugby and in the long term it's good for the game.

P.s. The rebels being strong in Australia's 2nd largest city is a good thing for the game and it's finances at an ARU level, as much as we all want our teams to win, rugby wins by the rebels exposing rugby in a positive way to as many people as possible.

Stop the presses, did WaratahJesus just post something rational.

I've always respected and somewhat understood your humour WJ but wow... talk about out of character.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Umm, their notorious historical problems had nothing whatsoever to do with 'excessive player payments', not even close. Rather, maladministration and/or poor team performance. Just crap general management and leadership prior to those bailouts.

And unlimited player spending would have helped no doubt?? :confused:

I doubt Jim Carmichael would accept a description of his management team as 'kids with dynamite'.

A very noticeable blip in the history of Australian provincial rugby management - as yourself and Gnostic remind us!

Surely if the recent Global Financial Clusterfuck has shown us anything, it's that humans can't be trusted in open markets without regulation.

As with the banks, outside of the Rebels in Aus, when a state union goes bust the rest of us pay through the ARU. It is right that some regulation is put on them to prevent calamity, just as SHOULD be happening in financial markets, but isn't.

For me, the salary cap isn't a socialistic glass ceiling, just sensible regulation. Imposing a draft system, where local talent would be FORCED out of state would be that.

Qld and ACT have shown you can build great squads within a cap. If they can do that once, they can continue to do so with their superior management and coaching. Taking stars and putting them in poorly managed situations will only be a quick fix for those other organisations, as has been demonstrated time and again.
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
"It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make. In a perfect world, this is my home and I'd like to play here forever," - Scott Higginbotham
In my mind that says it all really. The ARU is treading down a dangerous path allowing this team to be ripped apart.

They need to build the rebels and force from the ground up. Make sure they have their own academies and top level coaches.
I wish higgers and rebels all the best for next season and beyond.

I'm sorry....did I miss where the ARU put a gun to Higginbotham's head and told him that if he didn't go to the Rebels then him and all the people he loves and holds dear to his heart would find themselves on the bottom of the sea?

I grew up in the Far North of NZ in a small country town about 15min from some of the most beautiful beaches in the country. I moved away in my teens and have never moved back because there just isn't the work and hence the money to support the lifestyle I want to live.

In a perfect world though, that's my home and I'd like to live there forever. There would also be no cancer, AIDS or poverty. Unfortunately I, just like Higginbotham, don't live in a perfect world....I live in the real world.

To blame the ARU for this is simply ridiculous and border-line childish.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I'm sorry....did I miss where the ARU put a gun to Higginbotham's head and told him that if he didn't go to the Rebels then him and all the people he loves and holds dear to his heart would find themselves on the bottom of the sea?

I grew up in the Far North of NZ in a small country town about 15min from some of the most beautiful beaches in the country. I moved away in my teens and have never moved back because there just isn't the work and hence the money to support the lifestyle I want to live.

In a perfect world though, that's my home and I'd like to live there forever. There would also be no cancer, AIDS or poverty. Unfortunately I, just like Higginbotham, don't live in a perfect world....I live in the real world.

To blame the ARU for this is simply ridiculous and border-line childish.

I have been rather impartial to this whole situation of Higgers signing with the Rebels..

But lets be realistic here, the ARU and RUPA have fucked up because they are still negotiating a salary cap which may be 20% more or less..That is a considerable amount and could influence some players contracts quite significantly..

How are Super Rugby squads expected to sign squads for 2013 if they still don't know the exact amount that they are allowed to spend.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
I'm sorry....did I miss where the ARU put a gun to Higginbotham's head and told him that if he didn't go to the Rebels then him and all the people he loves and holds dear to his heart would find themselves on the bottom of the sea?

I grew up in the Far North of NZ in a small country town about 15min from some of the most beautiful beaches in the country. I moved away in my teens and have never moved back because there just isn't the work and hence the money to support the lifestyle I want to live.

In a perfect world though, that's my home and I'd like to live there forever. There would also be no cancer, AIDS or poverty. Unfortunately I, just like Higginbotham, don't live in a perfect world....I live in the real world.

To blame the ARU for this is simply ridiculous and border-line childish.

I have already explained in my earlier posts.

The negotiations should have been finalised earlier so the players and teams would have enough time to negotiate new contracts. This is the opinion of higginbotham himself, he has come out publicly and said so. The noises coming out of the reds seem to be singing the same tune.

Furthermore, there is also the argument around the need for a salary cap, as well as issues about it's effectiveness.

I am not advocating endless spending on players as some other posters seem to assume, but rather the ARU look into other measures such as capping player spending as a proportion of gross revenue, and requiring all teams to submit regular financial reports so the ARU can monitor spending.

Even if you are in favour of a cap, the ARU has fucked over both the players and 4 of the 5 Australian teams by not sorting out what the cap level is yet.
 

Tangawizi

Peter Fenwicke (45)
That the player himself comes out and says the ARU top up was rubbish compared to what else is around is a sad sign for the health of the code in Australia.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...-down-by-contract-process-20120518-1yvtr.html



Higginbotham 'let down' by contract process

Rebels-bound Scott Higginbotham has called for an overhaul of the "silly" and distracting contracting process that has seen him leave the Super Rugby champion Queensland Reds.
The 25-year-old flanker is keen to take on a leadership role at the Rebels and can't wait to play alongside James O'Connor and Kurtley Beale, but had plenty to say about the muddled contractual situation that preceded the most difficult decision of his career.
After initially agreeing to stay with the Reds a month ago, the Rebels trumpeted their star signing, with the 11-Test Wallaby moving to the Victorian franchise for the 2013 and 2014 seasons.
Advertisement: Story continues below
His change of heart came after the ARU top-up component of his deal was short of the mark, surprising both the player and Queensland Rugby Union officials. Before this year, players negotiated with the ARU first for top-up deals before deciding on their province.
Higginbotham spoke to the media before the Captain's Run training session at Ballymore and spoke of his disappointment in leaving a side and coaching staff that has turned him from a raw prospect to an in-form Wallaby forward.
He also took a swipe at the complicated, dual-contracting system that requires players and managers to essentially negotiate two contracts in the middle of a Super Rugby season.
"It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make. In a perfect world, this is my home and I'd like to play here forever. That's not the case," Higginbotham said.
"It's tough to sort out. You're doing two different deals. It's a tough way to do things. The way it's all structured, where you have to do these deals while you are still playing, is a tough and silly way to do things.
"That's the way they've decided to go about it."
Higginbotham said a streamlined contracting process should be conducted after the season and the uncertainty surrounding the future of some of the Reds' biggest names, including Quade Cooper, was on the mind of Ewen McKenzie's playing group.
"I think so. Doing it after the season would be a lot easier. It is a distraction on other players. We're obviously going through this now with Quade and what he's going to do. They're all thinking about that," Higginbotham said.
"It's also hard to say you want to stay somewhere if you don't know if someone else is staying somewhere. It's got all the things like that. It would be a better thing too do when you're not playing footy."
Higginbotham is 25, a veteran considering the youth of many of his Reds colleagues, and said the financial security offered by the Rebels was difficult to resist, even if his heart remained with the Reds.
"That's why players are staying here because it's such a good culture and it's a great team," he said.
"Melbourne came along with a good deal and a deal that suited me. I suppose at this point in my life, with my age, I decided that it was the right option for me.
"If I was two years younger and as young as the majority of the squad, I'd have no worries about staying in Queensland."
A disappointed McKenzie felt the ARU's new contracting process, which is set to include a yet-to-be-determined salary cap, let a frustrated Higginbotham down after he wanted to stay in Brisbane.
"We have to work within our structures," he said.
"We offered him a good deal and we've delivered a good rugby program to him that's made him a Wallaby and that's all you can do.
"At the end of the day, he'd like to be living in Queensland and surfing the beaches up here.
"But the bottom line is we can only pay players what they are individually worth in our squad."
The Reds meet the Lions in a must-win game and will start heavy favourites in a match that will feature the return of Cooper, who plays his first game since the knee injury that ended his World Cup last year.
The five-eighth provided a small scare after leaving a game of touch football at training to work on agility and further warm-ups but rejoined the session and will start on Saturday night.
- with AAP
 
T

TOCC

Guest
The concept of a union been allowed to have a wage bill as a percentage of their revenue is a significantly flawed concept given the current disposition of Australian Super Rugby clubs.

Firstly within Australian Rugby we have some clubs which are representative of playing unions from 0 players(Rebels) to 100'000 players(NSWRU), this directly correlates to the revenue of that union. Secondly, we have such vast differences between the unions overall revenue as a result of the aforementioned factor, that some clubs like the Brumbies would be left with a very paltry wage bill in comparison to a team like the Reds or Waratahs.

This would not be healthy for Australian Rugby.. A Salary Cap ensures a level playing field amongst the provinces(once the Rebels foreign players are reduced), it also ensures that clubs are not pressured to spend beyond their own means.

As it stands, the market value of a player is dictated by the constraints of a salary cap, if we were to remove the salary cap, you remove the limitation of what a players maximum value may be.

For example, Quade Cooper can not realistically demand $1.5million from any club because it would leave nothing for other players, but you remove the salary cap and you remove the ability to limit a players wage demands.
 
E

ellabroz

Guest
For all the whingeing on here about Higgers move south and the Rebels non-adherence to the EBA, the reality is that in professional sports each team will do whatever they can to improve their chances of winning. It is naive to slag off the Rebels for their signings whilst also bemoaning the inability of the long-established teams to keep their players. It wasn't that long ago that people in NSW & QLD were complaining about the success of the Brumbies.
 

Penguin

John Solomon (38)
I don't think most people are whinging about the Rebels here, nor do I recall many people ever bemoaning past Brumbies successes. People are complaining about this farce that is the salary cap, as it stands today. The ARU needs to sort this out ASAP! An even playing field for all in the Australian conference isn't too much to ask surely.
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
That the player himself comes out and says the ARU top up was rubbish compared to what else is around is a sad sign for the health of the code in Australia.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...-down-by-contract-process-20120518-1yvtr.html

Would it still be rubbish if he got the amount he was looking?

Can I get this right?? Higginbotham and the Reds thought that he was worth more than the ARU did? The reds offered as much as they could and thought that the ARU would top-up that amount to a level that Higgers would be happy with. They didn't.

"The way it's all structured, where you have to do these deals while you are still playing, is a tough and silly way to do things."

Ummmm.....I'm pretty sure that most other players do this as well. Here's some headlines from this season:

From just this Thursday:"Gear in talks with Japanese club"

"Cowan heading to Gloucester after NZ season"

"Blues back Munro negotiating move to France"


And then there's the coaches......

I just think that Higgers was asking a certain price and his so-called love for QLD wasn't as strong as his desire to make the extra $$.....big deal - it happens all the time in sport....oh, and in real life.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
If you read the long quoted media text in Tangawizi's post above, even the most ardent salary cap supporting posters here must agree that the whole player reward system in terms of overall process management, RUPA-ARU processes, and timing within the playing season and the massive distractions that causes, needs overhauling.

I respect Higgers even more for having the balls to be so honest and open about the issues, vs the usual rubbish PR gloss.

Remember that the ARU announced months back that the ARU player contract 'top ups' would be determined by Nuci and RD. There has never been public transparency as to how such top up calculations would be arrived at, in terms if the principles that would apply.

Obviously in this case, after the Reds had made their local offer, the ARU came back to Higgers with a $ level lower that he'd and Link had been expecting, and then the Reds couldn't or wouldn't make up that difference. So posters that attest that the ARU had absolutely nothing to do with all this perhaps do not quite appreciate how the new system for setting total player incomes is working (if the S15 player is also a Wallaby player). The ARU top up level (which in aggregate is being further constrained this year) can make a significant difference to a player's total income, obviously.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
The concept of a union been allowed to have a wage bill as a percentage of their revenue is a significantly flawed concept given the current disposition of Australian Super Rugby clubs.

Firstly within Australian Rugby we have some clubs which are representative of playing unions from 0 players(Rebels) to 100'000 players(NSWRU), this directly correlates to the revenue of that union. Secondly, we have such vast differences between the unions overall revenue as a result of the aforementioned factor, that some clubs like the Brumbies would be left with a very paltry wage bill in comparison to a team like the Reds or Waratahs.

This would not be healthy for Australian Rugby.. A Salary Cap ensures a level playing field amongst the provinces(once the Rebels foreign players are reduced), it also ensures that clubs are not pressured to spend beyond their own means.

As it stands, the market value of a player is dictated by the constraints of a salary cap, if we were to remove the salary cap, you remove the limitation of what a players maximum value may be.

For example, Quade Cooper can not realistically demand $1.5million from any club because it would leave nothing for other players, but you remove the salary cap and you remove the ability to limit a players wage demands.

THE central issue that keeps being skated around in all of this is this: do we have local RUs in Australia that are competent to manage their total businesses successfully for the medium term, or do we not? Successfully = a composite of building quality teams at multiple levels, growing revenues over time, and ensuring adequate profit and/or reserves for basic financial viability.

Vast amounts of big franchised businesses and sports businesses are able to create successfully managed local units without a central body interfering in one of their core cost parameters, but not others.

The way this community and commonality of success is typically created is via the central body imposing a broad suite of quality-assuring KPIs that are monitored and imposed over time and if, say, after a defined period, those quality KPIs are not met, then the right to manage the franchise is terminated and new managers are appointed, or offered the franchise.

This system is well proven and ensures a balanced outcome of financial and non financial goals are met and that managers or owners know their whole enterprise is at risk through non compliance. Attempting some form of loose control over one cost parameter only and no others and with no care or right to easily dismiss underperforming managers (prior to a total melt down crisis having nearly destroyed the franchise), never achieves a total, systemic franchise quality. At best, it just controls that one cost parameter in what may become a number of failed or mediocre franchised businesses that just drift on achieving nothing.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
If you read the long quoted media text in Tangawizi's post above, even the most ardent salary cap supporting posters here must agree that the whole player reward system in terms of overall process management, RUPA-ARU processes, and timing within the playing season and the massive distractions that causes, needs overhauling.

I respect Higgers even more for having the balls to be so honest and open about the issues, vs the usual rubbish PR gloss.

Remember that the ARU announced months back that the ARU player contract 'top ups' would be determined by Nuci and RD. There has never been public transparency as to how such top up calculations would be arrived at, in terms if the principles that would apply.

Obviously in this case, after the Reds had made their local offer, the ARU came back to Higgers with a $ level lower that he'd and Link had been expecting, and then the Reds couldn't or wouldn't make up that difference. So posters that attest that the ARU had absolutely nothing to do with all this perhaps do not quite appreciate how the new system for setting total player incomes is working (if the S15 player is also a Wallaby player). The ARU top up level (which in aggregate is being further constrained this year) can make a significant difference to a player's total income, obviously.


It is equally the reds "fault" as it is the ARUs, as link said they "will continue to make financially responsible decisions", between the lines it says, Genia got an uograde, Quades getting an upgrade and even with a higher salary cap, that's gonna take up a 1/5 of our payments. If you think as much as QLD would love Higgers to stay they didn't number crunch and look at the other players they have and decide he wasn't worth greater investment, your just trying to blame someone else.

It's not a perfect situation, the ARU & the RUPA (who let's not forget are balls deep in this as well) are not forcing anyone's hand, Higgers ARU top up isn't bigger because he s moving teams, the simple fact here is the rebels believe that Higgers is worth more to them than the reds do.
 

biggsy

Chilla Wilson (44)
Melbourne do what they do best, and much rather buy Premierships (Top Players) instead of doing the Hard Yards 1st up..... NRL and UNION down south is like playing Cricket in the USA, They need to get the big names so they get bums on seats... Its a Money driven state for sport... Look at the State of Origin, why the fuck would the played the 1st game there, Because the NRL got a good chunk of cash to play there Melbourne..... Beside that they dont give a shit unless it's AFL.....

There I said it :p

Also Higgers can open up more Cafe's there
 
D

daz

Guest
Melbourne do what they do best, and much rather buy Premierships (Top Players) instead of doing the Hard Yards 1st up..... NRL and UNION down south is like playing Cricket in the USA, They need to get the big names so they get bums on seats... Its a Money driven state for sport... Look at the State of Origin, why the fuck would the played the 1st game there, Because the NRL got a good chunk of cash to play there Melbourne..... Beside that they dont give a shit unless it's AFL.....

There I said it :p

Also Higgers can open up more Cafe's there

Thanks Biggsy, you have just proven that this conversation has run out of steam.....
 

kronic

John Solomon (38)
Firstly within Australian Rugby we have some clubs which are representative of playing unions from 0 players(Rebels) to 100'000 players(NSWRU), this directly correlates to the revenue of that union. Secondly, we have such vast differences between the unions overall revenue as a result of the aforementioned factor, that some clubs like the Brumbies would be left with a very paltry wage bill in comparison to a team like the Reds or Waratahs.
Well the Rebels for one are a private franchise, not operated by their state/provincial union, there is a memorandum of understanding between the two. If you had no idea, you think they are one and the same.

Hope this is not a pot shot at our union?
 

kronic

John Solomon (38)
Melbourne do what they do best, and much rather buy Premierships (Top Players) instead of doing the Hard Yards 1st up..... NRL and UNION down south is like playing Cricket in the USA, They need to get the big names so they get bums on seats... Its a Money driven state for sport... Look at the State of Origin, why the fuck would the played the 1st game there, Because the NRL got a good chunk of cash to play there Melbourne..... Beside that they dont give a shit unless it's AFL.....

There I said it :p

Also Higgers can open up more Cafe's there
Grasping at straws there, referencing League. Wouldn't expect much else from a club who records their crowd atmosphere, be if it was only "once".

Please, there is a reason why we have the biggest stadium in Australia, which has hosted numerous football codes, which huge attendances. Something you could only dream about.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top