Brumbies vs Rebels Rnd 8 Super Rugby 2012

[Slim 293]

Interesting move. Rebels have the stronger back line, but a full strength Brumbies pack could have put this to bed at half-time.

Instead, you're just leaving the door open.

How so?

The changes are hardly radical...

The Brumbies will still be fielding a superior pack on paper, and then in the second half they have the option of bringing on the likes of Alexander, Kimlin and Vaea...

In contrast, the Rebels bench consists of...

 

[Ash]

Slim, you might be just the man who can provide an answer to a quite serious question that has always troubled me. What possible advantage is there in selecting four lineout jumpers given that it probably compromises the work that the second and back rowers do for the other 75 non-lineout minutes of the game? Years ago I asked the same question of a Wallabies' lineout coach who had proudly drawn my attention to their lineout play book which was at least 3 centimetres thick, I kid you not. His answer was that it provided additional options, which was true but unhelpful.
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Bruce, agree that the four jumpers are fairly pointless. I always thought, though, that using a tall guy lifting at the back of a jumper was very beneficial, assuming the jumper had a good enough spring to get quickly up to the height where the lifter's arms are extended. The props can lift at the front.

I noticed that the Reds (I bet more teams do it, but can only really recall it from the Reds off the top of my head) using a second rower to lift Higgenbotham from behind at 2.

 

[Ash]

How so?

The changes are hardly radical...

The Brumbies will still be fielding a superior pack on paper, and then in the second half they have the option of bringing on the likes of Alexander, Kimlin and Vaea...

In contrast, the Rebels bench consists of...

A couple of ex-Wallabies, an ex-English international, some players with potential, some journeymen and some rookies.

Looking more at those benches, reserve hooker I'd maybe just give to the Rebels. Prop definitely to the Brumbies by a mile. Lock is tricky, as Kimlin should be good (after a shocker last week), and Vaea handy, but the Rebels have ex-England internation Lipman to come on, with Jones going into the second row. Davidson is a bit down on the others, he's a great club player but unfortunately I don't think can provide the same level of performance at the Super level.

In the backs, there's Prior, who is very solid, and Kingi at scrumhalf, who can be a livewire. Then the Rebels have two Wallabies in Huxley and Johansson (who can't be over rated as no-one really rates him). The Brumbies have the young Coleman, who has been electric at times but rather inconsistent and is returning from injury, and Smith, who I think the Brumbies will sorely miss by having a winger at 13 instead of him.

The Brumbies bench is definitely stronger, but I don't think there's as huge a difference you are implying there is. And don't forget, some of that strength is coming from rotating out Alexander for Murphy, Kimlin for Fardy (not a real lock), Vaea for Fotu (unproven for the Brumbies yet and his first game after a fair lay off), and Kuridrani for Smith. The last could really bite them, as Smith has been great this year and that Rebels midfield looks a dangerous prospect with J'OC and Inman. Weakening the team to have a stronger bench is not the best boast in the world.

This is a real banana skin game for the Brumbies, and I think Jake White is either brave or foolish for choosing to rotate some key players for it.

 

[tranquility]

I am not sure if it happens much at the professional level, but if you get a big prop and a light backrower / lock you can sometimes have a 1 man lift at the front which offers more options on a defensive lineout.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, agree that the four jumpers are fairly pointless. I always thought, though, that using a tall guy lifting at the back of a jumper was very beneficial, assuming the jumper had a good enough spring to get quickly up to the height where the lifter's arms are extended. The props can lift at the front.

I noticed that the Reds (I bet more teams do it, but can only really recall it from the Reds off the top of my head) using a second rower to lift Higgenbotham from behind at 2.

You mean something like this, Ash? This is Tim Davidson from the Rebels being lifted. Notice how much higher his hips are than his opponent's.

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[Paradox]

Clutching at straws here but perhaps if you're backrow are good jumpers then your locks can be used to power the maul more effectively if they are the lifters.

 

[tigerland12]

I'm looking forward to seeng Fotu play, heard he's a bit of an excitement machine.

 

[Brumbieman]

Brumbieman

Good piece up there about Gerrard but can't agree with all of it. I said for quite a time that Gerrard should be in any Wallaby squad to be trundled out if there is a test to be played in bad weather or ground conditions because of his long raking accurate kick and good rugby brain.

The reason why he is no longer playing for the Wallabies is that he is too slow. He can make it into position at fullback quite well because of his experience, but at the top level his lack of pace would be a problem against fast finishing wingers.

On attack his rugby brain masks his slowness as he helps faster team mates to finish the job but some opportunities have to be forgone because he can be run down.

He was found out in his last test match, in the loss against Samoa last year, though he wasn't the Lone Ranger that day.

I've seen him play since he was a nipper and he's always had a speed problem, even being embarrassed at club level many a time for my team, The Rats. His best position skill wise was always at 15 but factoring in his pace I always thought he would have been better as an outside centre.

I would agree that he may lack pace now, and perhaps even as far back as 2010/2009. However, in his early years at the Brumbies he was lightning, and certainly not in his youth. Its just his running style that undoes him, he loads his hammies up so much that they cant take it. When they were intact he was an absolute weapon on the end of a Brumbies backline consisting of Gregan, Larkham, Giteau, Mortlock, Rathbone and Roff, and his try tallies reflected that.

Since he lost his speed, he has focussed more on his game, and kicking, and is still so good at both of them that he wouldn't be out of place at international level. We sure as hell could have used him at the world cup, instead of tearing my hair out (and my vocal chords) watching Barnes repeatedly kick every ball we got straight back at the kiwis, or at the Irish.

He may be slow, but his boot, and positional play are still the best in Aussie rugby.

 

[tranquility]

Did Barnes get on the field against the Kiwis or the Irish?

 

[Grandmaster Flash]

Barnes wasn't in the 22 against Ireland and was on the bench for the semi, so dunno where that came from.

Also I think Gerrard lost his speed well before 09/10 - when he played on the EOYT against Scotland in '06 he nearly got run down by a front rower from memory.

 

[RedsHappy]

.... Since he [Gerrard] lost his speed, he has focussed more on his game, and kicking, and is still so good at both of them that he wouldn't be out of place at international level. We sure as hell could have used him at the world cup, instead of tearing my hair out (and my vocal chords) watching Barnes repeatedly kick every ball we got straight back at the kiwis, or at the Irish. He may be slow, but his boot, and positional play are still the best in Aussie rugby.

Whatever else re the merits of Gerrard at this or that level, Brumbieman I could not agree more re the pleasure of sighting an Australian back that can kick - under attacking pressure - an intelligent length to a intelligent target point on the field all in a manner that aids smart offensive field position and/or or the right distance down and over the side line.

Looking at 2012's Aus S15 performances, this is almost an extinct species of individual skill that in future we'll only be able to observe on faded YouTube videos or home movies.

The standard of Aus S15 kicking from hand in evidence today is generally woeful - the typical gift to the opposition is a kick beautifully weighted to fall on a generous flight path right into the hands of an already mobilised opposition winger or FB. Then the effective counter attack begins and typically the kicking team shuffles back 15-20 metres at least to defend it as possession is assuredly lost and the original kicking team is forced to tackle like demons to hold a tolerable - by now rearguard - field position.

 

[tranquility]

Well perhaps I am stating the bleeding obvious, but if Gerrard is too slow to make the Wobblies (very much debatable) let's bring him on as the kicking goal (from hand) Braam can keep doing his work via skype (ha ha).

 

[Ash]

You mean something like this, Ash? This is Tim Davidson from the Rebels being lifted. Notice how much higher his hips are than his opponent's.

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That's exactly it, Bruce. I now recall you posting that image before. As long as the guy being lifted has a good spring, then the tall lifter can get him up there. It's not uncommon to see teams line up with two second rowers next to each other now.

That's a fabulous shot, by the way. Both Davidson and his rear lifter (Pyle?) aren't even at full extension, and the Cheetahs jumper is, and look at that huge difference. Davidson is still very stiff and straight, only small gripe is the small separation in his legs.

 

[TheBigDog]

I noticed that the Reds (I bet more teams do it, but can only really recall it from the Reds off the top of my head) using a second rower to lift Higgenbotham from behind at 2.

Correct Ash and I think you'll see a lot more teams do it now, I would dare say its considered the normal way to set a line now. I know down at my club even the lower grades teams are adopting this style with a prop at the front of the lineout and one right at the back with jumpers all through the middle. As illustrated in Bruce's picture it gives much more height and also many more options as you aren't limited to conventional 'pods'.

 

[Braveheart81]

It does make sense.

You would assume that your 190cm backrower is more agile than your 200cm lock and should therefore be a better jumper and also potentially possess better ball handling skills. As the 200cm lock has the ability to lift higher than a shorter man, then the overall result of having the smaller guy jump and the taller guy lift should be the ability to reach a higher catching point.

 

[AlexH]

I, for one, am very much looking forward to seeing what Fotu Auelua can do at eight. I am also looking forward to the commentators reading out his name because I have no idea how its pronounced. Hopefully, unlike another bloke who I was keen to see play at the start of the season, Napolioni Nalaga, this bloke lives up to all the hype.

 

[Braveheart81]

Maybe they'll say both names each time and he'll end up sounding very similar to Kahn Fotuali'i.

 

[suckerforred]

That's a fabulous shot, by the way. Both Davidson and his rear lifter (Pyle?) aren't even at full extension, and the Cheetahs jumper is, and look at that huge difference. Davidson is still very stiff and straight, only small gripe is the small separation in his legs.

Jeezzz Ash, he is a backrower not a diver!

 

[Bruce Ross]

Jeezzz Ash, he is a backrower not a diver!

I wish I'd said that.
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[suckerforred]

I wish I'd said that.
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You can have it Bruce. My present to you.