Breakaway English, French, Saffa super rugby plans

[Dan54]

Not quite to the point but what gets up my nose is when SAffer commentators like Bladen read off their notes and say so and so was a league player, when some of them played both codes as younger boys and went to a pro league team straight out of their school 1st XV union side. That is another problem that SAffer rugby union doesn't have that we wouldn't mind if they did.

Even Brit commentators make similar errors. In the Ulster v. Clermont Heineken Cup match Adam D'Arcy set up what in hindsight turned out to be the winning try. Commentator Jonnie Hammond said D'Arcy came to Belfast straight from the Manly league team. Give me a break Jonnie - he was playing for the Manly Marlins in the Shute Shield. They play rugby union.

That a little bug bear of mine to LG, but I find it with OZ press as well, one case I have seen a lot lately is Quade Cooper, when discussion on whether he would go to league all I read in Courier Mail was that he was a league player that went to union after going to Churchie, he may have played league as well, but not once did I read that he played union his most of life in NZ, and when he came to OZ, he was playing union up at Logan City until he went to Churchie.

 

[Swat]

You were reading the courier mail, what do you expect?

 

[Mank]

Given the thread has been hijacked, if I may continue the hijacking.

As an Aussie who has lived in SA I'll provide a slight counter view. I think that quota's are a good thing and do need to be enforced.

The path to a team like the Springboks, is impossible for an Eastern Cape youngster to envisage without someone to aspire to emulate. Chester Williams was a trailblazer and still is an icon for many in South Africa. The reason that quota's are needed cannot be ignored. The political system that brought this on needs to be undone. If that requires a period of struggle until a balance of quality youngsters come through and a full meritocracy is in place so be it. There actually seems to be good progress in this and there are quality non-whites playing at the visible levels in SA. If they are there on a quota basis or as a part of a meritocracy I cannot judge. If they are there as quota players then the onus is on the SARU to improve the quality of the non-white youngsters so that it becomes a meritocracy.

All good up till here where you lost me. Why is the onus on a sporting body to improve the quality of a racial group? It's noble to think that way sure, but by what standard can you say this? What objective measure says this is true?

The problem being of course that facilities in poor areas are terrible to non-existent, and this is a municipal or federal problem, requiring enormous amounts of money and changes in society to fix. Sporting bodies can do something, and SARU are (probably not quite enough), but there is a limit.

Having watched Rugby in a couple of Eastern Cape pubs where I was one of a very few whites, I have seen the passion that a broader population has for the game. And these guys do need their idols/heroes and trailblazers.

I recognise that my views may polarise, but the abhorrent history comes with a cost. And unfortunately that cost will be paid until an equality is established.

Can you offer any practical solution to judging when that is? When the team is 85% black, 8% white, 5% coloured and 1.5% indian and 0.5% other races? What happens if this is never reached? Does this apply to all sports, say for example swimming? Or do we go for X amount of years, and what amount is that?

In a related sport I recall how Makhaya Ntini was initially derided for being a token selection. His career says that was not correct. And a more dignified sportsman and talisman you cannot meet.

Really enjoyed Ntini as a sportsman and character. One of my favourite moments was him getting the last laugh and bowling one of the sub-continent players (can't remember who) after he'd tried to distract Ntini by moving his leg out on approach.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good posts HKTiger and Mank. Just goes to show we don't have to agree on everything to have some interesting discussion - and without the rancour that some resort to, from those who take things too personally and need to toughen up.

I loved Makhaya, and I'm sure that by the end of his career he must have been one of the most popular sportsmen in the RSA - probably one of the most popular people in any field.

 

[HKTiger]

All good up till here where you lost me. Why is the onus on a sporting body to improve the quality of a racial group? It's noble to think that way sure, but by what standard can you say this? What objective measure says this is true?

The problem being of course that facilities in poor areas are terrible to non-existent, and this is a municipal or federal problem, requiring enormous amounts of money and changes in society to fix. Sporting bodies can do something, and SARU are (probably not quite enough), but there is a limit.



Can you offer any practical solution to judging when that is? When the team is 85% black, 8% white, 5% coloured and 1.5% indian and 0.5% other races? What happens if this is never reached? Does this apply to all sports, say for example swimming? Or do we go for X amount of years, and what amount is that?
.........

Fair points. If I had an answer I would probably be employed in a different field. I accept that my view is more of a "noble" one and in practice there are many constraints in place. From a personal perspective I lean to an ethical and moral standpoint on most issues so yes I do believe that organisations such as SARU have such an ethical and moral responsibility.

I wish I could provide a practical solution. Personally I don't think there is one. I think at a certain time which is probably at the end of 2 to 3 full generations of players (so 25+ years) an equilibrium should have been established whereby a legitimate meritocracy could be in place. Economic circumstance will impact that so this timeline may need to be longer.

As to other sports, I was aware that for a time there was a belief that the SA soccer team also practised quota systems. Of course that was to include a token white player.

Probably haven't helped my case but maybe that's why some of this is deemed a crusade or a cause rather than something that has clear boundaries.

 

[Dan54]

You were reading the courier mail, what do you expect?

Unfortunately only local paper, from which I get tenders!! :'(

 

[Swat]

The standard of journalism in this country has dropped significantly across the board, I find most of the SMH to be nauseating crap now. The only decent paper is the Fin Review, but I'm not massively into business so I'm pretty much f*cked. I just get my news from Twitter now to try and cut out the bullsh*t, however it still manages to seep through.

 

[light]

I just get my news from Twitter now to try and cut out the bullsh*t.

That was one of the most contradicting sentences I have read in my life... you do know Twitter is FULL of bullshit right?

 

[Swat]

That was one of the most contradicting sentences I have read in my life... you do know Twitter is FULL of bullshit right?

It depends who you follow, I follow the SMH news and it doesn't post all the links to the crap you see on their website, but still some come through.

 

[PaarlBok]

I wish I could provide a practical solution. Personally I don't think there is one.

There is a simple one right here in my beloved Boland and Paarl region. Pretty much the same solution you need in Australia to grow rugby. I have been posting it a few time in the past but then I am suppose to be deleted from the forum by Gagger but he dont want to obey my orders. So lets keep it with the PB ghost.

 

[PaarlBok]

Just for the interest as we speak, qoutas in SA sport is faaaaaar from over. The politicians drive that HKTiger % of population qouta model for dead.
Sport24

SA sport 'not yet transformed'
Mbalula: No mercy for crooks Mbalula set to decide on CSA Mbalula wants results soon Cape Town - Four years after the 2008 national sport indaba the country is still grappling with the same issues raised then, Sport and Recreation Minister Fikile Mbalula said on Tuesday.

At the centre of the debates then was the issue of transformation where delegates recognised the slow pace and resistance to change in sporting circles, he told the National Assembly.

Delegates believed the journey to full transformation in sport was still far from over.

They cited "living examples in rugby and cricket that pointed out to lingering prejudices", he said.

"Four years down the line we are again sitting here grappling with the same issues as raised in the 2008 national sport indaba."

Next week's national sport indaba - on November 21 and 22 - was intended to reconstruct, revitalise, and transform the sport and recreation sector under the theme "from policy to practice, not just another Indaba", Mbalula said.

Among other things, the indaba would review the instruments, policies, strategies, and tactics relied upon over the past 16 years for the transformation of South African society. "Is there room for review and refinement?"

It would align the Sport and Recreation SA (SRSA) road map strategic priorities to current and future policies and legislation within the sector.

A transformation charter and delivery mechanisms for all sectors and role-players involved in sport and recreation would be fast-tracked.

It would set in motion campaigns, projects, strategies, and tactics that would "leap-frog" the sport and recreation sector into new realities and possibilities.

Providing facilities in disadvantaged communities within the context of the two economy analysis, while ensuring there was access, integration, quality, excellence, and global competitiveness, would also be dealt with, Mbalula said.

"We must all be combat ready to join all South Africans in the battle trenches for a non-racial, non-sexist, democratic, accessible, integrated, and united sport and recreation system today and beyond.

"Of cardinal importance, we must do so to chart a common vision, a common implementation plan, a common delivery mechanisms, across all spheres of government, for sport and recreation development and total transformation of our sector," said Mbalula.

Letter to Min of Sport: Mbalula

Start with the grassroots in all sport, the 6/7 years olds and forget about the top, it will take care of itself!

From: The ghost of PB.

 

[HKTiger]

PB

Agree. But you must give them something to aspire to imho. And thus by some form of definition you promote players who do not fully deserve it and thus deny a meritocracy.

But I fear we may have derailed this thread to far.

Maybe a mod could split it as it is a valid discussion.

 

[PaarlBok]

PB

Agree. But you must give them something to aspire to imho. And thus by some form of definition you promote players who do not fully deserve it and thus deny a meritocracy.

But I fear we may have derailed this thread to far.

Maybe a mod could split it as it is a valid discussion.

Look I qouted Boland as an example. We maybe poor in rugby moneywise but we are rich in rugby culture probably the richest in world rugby and I am fortunate to see the likes stars like Guthro Steenkamp (Paarl Boys High) and Ashley Johnson (Paarl Gym) came through from U14 to the top level. The one positive spin from the quota system is that talented coloured players are prime stock in SA. They are getting poached from Boland from early age and I can use examples or names most if any have never even heard about. We have a U12 anually provincial competition for WP/Boland/SWD/EP/Border provinces where these poachers get together and making sure the young talent gets into the big rugby schools. Last year it was at Paarl Gym, this year it will be in December in Riversdal. The Brutes have a very good poaching strategy going for these players to help them make up their numbers. These days all SA schools are open , so your facility/township/poor back ground upgrade wont work at all. You get this at any SA town no matter the colour of the skin of the locals. Its about getting the young talent into the right enviroment to do juctice to that talent.

When I attend the hockey nationals one of the Border kids father told me his laaitie was picked for the cricket Nuffield team. They split the two pait of kids into those who made the team and those who dont. Borders schools president had to give the selectors the go ahead and after watching this two groups decided for some reasion they dont had enough black faces in the team and remove this parents laaitie (he open the batting) with a black face from the other group on the spot and in front of all the laaities. Can you imagen how this kid had to go through and the amount of damage have been done. Thats the biggest negative from the system. SARU and the politics had a lot to say about the amount of coloured players in provincial youth teams and most of them dont go to the top? There is a very simple reason for that. I educate and teach my laaitie (he have to be good enough to make the side (10 out of 100 trialist) and the coloured kid ratio is (1 out of 5 trialist) to not only make the provincial but to prove himself worth of his spot. In simple this mean to me that the kid have to start practise when the usual school level kids stop practising. In short he have to earn his jersey. That coloured kids get it for nothing, vokol and the way things work in life is that once you have to work for something you value it while getting it without effort you dont value it and obvious dont work hard for it. I feel really sorry for these kids when I saw them play and its obvious to see their work ethic and skills level. This mean the other 90 white kids that dont make the cut will simply and either working harder for next year or will simply blame the setup while the 4 out of the 5 coloured kids will never know if they made the team on merit or on skin colour.

Trust me I dont measure players on skin colour, I do measure them on skills level in any sport. For me to go and spend a lot of money supporting my kids province and see the way they struggle and lost game because of this qouta players and to see the coach have to plan to work around this is just crazy stuff.

I'll give you the Boland rugby example

How many coloured player clubs?

How many players of colour in their player squad
http://www.bolandrugby.com/boland_rugby_team.php

Simple reason = Boland all walk of life schools have a rugby playing culture and no money. Give them money and they'll be one of SA strongest provinces.

 

[PaarlBok]

The irony of all this is that Boland won the CC 1st division by beating the EP Kings 43-12 in the final. Its a well known fact that the EP Kings are pushed by the SA politicians and government and SARU to get to play S15 rugby. To really get this thread back on track is that the current S15 format will make it impossible for Boland to play Premier CC in SA. This mean Boland will be yet again for another year lose a lot of their top stars and will start from zero in 2012 again after losing 9 of their 15 players which started in the final.

Die Burger
Afrikaans version

Bolanders gun hul trekvoëls CB-rugby

KAAPSTAD. – Hoe sê jy vir ’n speler hy mag nie sy loopbaan elders bevorder nie?

Piet Bergh, uitvoerende hoof van Boland Rugby, het gister hier dié filosofiese benadering gevolg toe hy oor die groot uittog van spelers uit sy stal gepols is.

Die Boland het vanjaar ’n byna volmaakte seisoen beleef toe hy die Oostelike Provinsie-Kings in die eindstryd van die Curriebeker-reeks se Eerste Liga met 43-12 gestamp het.

“Ons het daarna nege spelers verloor en ná so ’n goeie seisoen is dit meesal die beste spelers in jou span,” het Bergh gesê.

Vyf van daardie spelers is Griekwas toe en gerugte wil dit hê dat die Stormers se “koue skouer” vir Bolandse spelers en die Cheetahs se geelwortel van Super Rugby-speelkans ’n groot rol gespeel het.

“Ons sou vanjaar net twee keer op TV gespeel het, maar doen toe so goed dat ons eindelik ses keer sulke blootstelling kry.

“Vir Regent (die spanborg) was dit wonderlik. Hulle het ná die eindstryd na ons toe gekom met wesenlike bonusse vir die spelers. Hulle het dit verdien.

“Maar dié blootstelling het noodwendig beteken die spelers kry ’n beter kans om raakgesien te word. En jy ontsê ’n speler nie die kans om Curriebeker-rugby te speel nie,” het Bergh gesê.

Griekwas het Willie le Roux, Janro van Niekerk, Ligtoring Landman, PJ Vermeulen en Eugene Butterworth se dienste verkry.

Die Noord-Kapenaars het ook in die afgelope week na Pieter Bergh, die Bolandse tegniese raadgewer, voelers uitgesteek en hom toe in daardie hoedanigheid én as verdedigingsafrigter aangestel.

Die ander Bolandse trekvoëls is Grant le Roux (SWD), Ashton Constant (Spanje), Danwel Demas (Pumas) en Henjo van Niekerk (aanbod van die hand gewys).

Die Bolandse vleuel Cornal Hendricks is nog tot volgende jaar gekontrakteer, maar die Blitsbok-breier, Paul Treu, stel baie in hom belang. Boland is bereid om hom vry te stel.

Hendricks het ’n goeie kans gehad om vandeesweek saam met die Blitsbokke na Australië te vertrek, maar sy agent vertraag tans die onderhandelinge. Die Vrystaat hou glo ook van Hendricks.

“Man, vir nou beskou ons Cornal nog as een van ons spelers, maar hy het die vermoë om top-rugby te speel en daarom sal ons nie in sy pad staan nie,” het Bergh gesê.

Hy is egter positief oor die unie se kanse volgende jaar.

“Dit was ’n gatslag toe aangekondig is dat die Curriebeker-reeks van agt na ses spanne verklein word. Ek stem nie saam daarmee nie, maar berus daarby.

“Ons het wel nog vir Bolla Conradie en Elgar Watts en in ons kompetisie kan jy met daardie skakelpaar die pap lekker dik aanmaak .

“Ons praat ook nog met ’n paar spelers, maar as ons nie nou enig*iemand kontrakteer nie, sal ons ná die Varsitybeker- en die Vodacombeker-reeks ’n plan maak.

“Ons het Danwel Demas en Ligtoring Landman vanjaar eers in Junie gekry en hulle was toe supersterre, sê ek jou.”

- Die Burger

 

[PaarlBok]

Sorry if I bore you lot and go a bit oof thread here with the SA Politics. Surprise to see this article goes out

Sport24

Mbalula: Quotas are exhausted
Cape Town - Sport quotas are exhausted and have generally been counter-productive, Sport and Recreation Minister Fikile Mbalula said on Wednesday.

Quotas were introduced to achieve the goal of integration but this had yet to be realised, he told a media briefing at Parliament on the ministry's "transformation perspective document".

It was necessary for the country to be strong in terms of sport development, and for this a national development plan was required.

"There is slowness [in transformation] because there is no agenda," he said.

"People complain. They moan about a whole lot of things, about transformation... but everyone needs to be speaking about transformation knowing what is the plan."

Mbalula said there was an over concentration on three major sporting codes - cricket, soccer and rugby.

What happened in netball, basketball, amateur boxing, or even boxing itself, among others, appeared to be "none of our business".

"You will be interested to see that in most of the sporting codes in our country, if you do an examination, we've achieved maximum transformation there, and through the quota system, among others," he said.

"And I think transformation must not only be measured in terms of the top three commercial [sport codes]. It must be measured across in terms of sport."

Sport was about talent, and not a question of electing people to achieve representivity.

The key question was whether there were developmental programmes to nurture players. If blacks did not play rugby, were there programmes for those that did play to be nurtured, guided, and off-loaded into the system so as to ensure representivity?
"So how are we going to achieve that? We are saying this transformation must be narrowed down to a score card... [for] the different federations," Mbalula said.

"Secondly, there must be a binding transformation charter."

Without a strong developmental approach, there would not be black players making the national team in the future.

"Because when we go to a World Cup, we're not going to select a person simply because of colour," Mabalula said.

"We want the best in the World Cup... nobody wants to be a failure because of 'I'm here just to add up numbers of black people'. We are there because we want to compete.

"At the end of the day, I don't want to be a quota player. I want to be there on merit and I want my talent to be recognised."

There were many black players who wanted to play rugby. The question was why were they not finding their way through in the different competitions.

This was one of the issues the national sport indaba would look into in Midrand next week, Mbalula said.

I get all confused with this going out to the world press. Look pretty good but as long as they talk about skin colour, it will always have the qouta tag. Thing is thats not what happens our in the real world. Practise what you preach!