PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Hope they all have Aus passports eitherwise they dont qualify.
Breakaway English, French, Saffa super rugby plans
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WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
Beale is indigenous so, yes, he has a Australian passport. Cooper (probably not),Genia and Samo I'm not too sure of. Palu has as does TPN as both are either long term residents from children or born here. Kepu more than likely not.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Australian born
liquor box
Peter Sullivan (51)
Paarl, have you ever heard what the coloured kids think of getting selected based on skin colour? It must be a strange feeling to be picked on race and not skill level whether you are from any background.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
Yes, but NZ raised. If he left at a very young age he could have left on his parent(s) passport. However, being an Australian citizen by birth he probably would have an Australian passport by now. Good catch.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Its a lose lose situation for them aswell. They hate it as much as the white kids do. Problem is that its quite difficult whats going on behind close doors. The Langeveldt vs Andre Nel and Rudolph vs Ontong incidents in cricket caused a lot of problems.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
and there you have them all having to play provincial like the Beast for another 2 years before the Inland Affairs get this sorted out.
Mank
Ted Thorn (20)
Oh yes, I agree to some extent. The standard of rugby in Europe (I live in England) is higher than some people give credit for. However, I still believe that the best Super Rugby games are at a higher pace and standard than those in Europe. There is a reason New Zealand can produce an 83% win ratio, because they still consistently produce the best players. The top sides in SA and Australia are obviously also there or thereabouts. Playing against the best is what challenges and improves us. I don't think we'd be as challenged in a modern game by playing in Europe and I think we'd see this reflected when our national side comes to play NZ and Australia.
That's how I see it at the moment, not saying it can't change.
Having said that, it would be very interesting to see two SA teams compete in the Heineken cup.
Mank
Ted Thorn (20)
Yes, it raises questions, but why do people think playing numbers should automatically translate into dominance? The evidence is overwhelmingly against this theory in all sports. It's not a question of quantity but quality. The reason New Zealand are consistently top is not because of numbers, but because of the quality of rugby they're exposed to from a young age. It's pervasive across the nation, players are challenged from early days, they have to work hard and put in a lot of hours to compete with their peers. It's self fulfilling.
You have a point in that if SA (or any nation) can get the coaching structures and mindsets correct from an early age then this could translate into better performance later. But that doesn't have a lot to do with player numbers.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
I think pointing to quotas is completely off the point. There have hardly been any enforced quotas at Bok level for years now.
The quote issue is not what it used to be.
Yes SA has loads more players registered and yes, they should be performing a lot better but here are couple of hints as to why performance is not always important.
- political interference
- incompetent administrators
- "Affirmative Action" appointments, like PdV, with no performance clauses, like PdV
- more incompetence
- corruption (the money does not get to the grassroots everywhere in the country, but this is nothing new. 20 years ago in Pretoria we hardly got any money from Northern Transvaal at my club)
- inadequate support processes to bring talent through - some provinces are better than others but many are poor at this (getting better I understand though)
I can carry on but integration from the top down in many ways is non existent. Sometimes I think it's a miracle we compete at all. Maybe our sheer bloody mindedness makes up for it.
The quote issue is not what it used to be.
Yes SA has loads more players registered and yes, they should be performing a lot better but here are couple of hints as to why performance is not always important.
- political interference
- incompetent administrators
- "Affirmative Action" appointments, like PdV, with no performance clauses, like PdV
- more incompetence
- corruption (the money does not get to the grassroots everywhere in the country, but this is nothing new. 20 years ago in Pretoria we hardly got any money from Northern Transvaal at my club)
- inadequate support processes to bring talent through - some provinces are better than others but many are poor at this (getting better I understand though)
I can carry on but integration from the top down in many ways is non existent. Sometimes I think it's a miracle we compete at all. Maybe our sheer bloody mindedness makes up for it.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Bolded bit is actually qouta specially the third one on PdV and the only reason we havent had the same interference like in Jake White's days. Dont fool yourself. Qoutas is alive and well in all SA Sport.
Brisbok
Cyril Towers (30)
I don't think quotas are acceptable at any level Lee. Selecting players on anything other than merit alone at any level will always cause problems. Even at schoolboy level...imagine your son was the one to miss out on a place in a representative team because a couple of other players, with less ability than him, had to be selected because of the colour of their skin. How would you explain that to him?
Kevin Pietesen (and half the English cricket team!) is playing for England due to the fact that his chances in South Africa were limited at state level because of quota selections.
Quotas are a short cut and an easy way out. If the correct development programs were put in place there would be no need for quotas.
Luckily we are getting close to the point in South African rugby where we will have enough talent amongst the players of colour that quotas will no longer be necessary. It's a pity that we cannot say the same for our coaches and administrators! With the overall playing talent we've had in the last 4 years, I believe our results would have been significantly better if our head coach was picked for his coaching ability rather than colour of his skin.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
SA successe in rugby despite the qouta setback is in our very strong structures from the bottom to the top. If we had the same structures as Australia, we would have been dead by now. The CC is very important for our game, not only the Premie league, the 1st Division and specially our U19 and U21 youth competition provide us with the player stock we have at the moment. The S15 competition already hit us hard when they decide to cut our Premier league at the top. That will mean we will have two more amateur teams and 180 less full time rugby players.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Why not try for both? ... Sides who want to stay in S15, stay - and put the Southern Kings and, say, WP (if they want to go) into the HEC and see how they play. If the invitation is forthcoming, of course.
The European teams not wanting to travel to SA is the potential stumbling block. Maybe base the side in England like the Saffacens, play most home games there but bring say 3 or 4 matches per season as a 'tour' to SA?
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
No need for that Boet. Our lot can travel to the UK on the thursday and be back at home on the sunday.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
A weekly shuttle rather than month+ stints? Fair enuff!
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
True enough. For whatever it is worth, though, the suggestion in the Grauniad article, was that England and France were looking at breaking away to establish a new club comp. Whether they would then go to the lengths required to add 2 SA teams rather than teams located closer geographically is the question, the implication being that they would consider this for financial reasons. There are plenty of doubts on this proposition however, it must be said.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
This has been an interesting thread. It was hijacked a bit but the hijacking parts have been compelling.
Both countries have problems in their rugby and the SAffer forum members have enlightened us with theirs. Much of what they said we have read in the past but were half forgotten, at least by me, and it's good to see them again to jog the memory - and all in one place.
It must be a bitch to have quotas, official or unofficial. We don't think of that. We think how lucky they are that they can fund their excellent Currie Cup and Vodacom Cup competitions with a TV market share we can't even day dream about. With only 5 pro rugby teams on TV here but also (IIRR) 17 Aussie Rules and 15 NRL pro teams, we're left with about only 15% the non-soccer TV pot. That's just a guess.
We should never be in doubt about why JON wanted a longer Super season. There is bitching about how much he is paid but it is probably not enough.
Just going back to the mention of brown/black players: Beale, Kepu, Palu, TPN, Cooper, Samo and Genia - nearly half the starting Oz team.
Most of them probably have Oz passports. Beale, Kepu, Palu and TPN were born in Australia. Of the others: Cooper came with his parents to Oz and went to high school here; Samo came to Oz in 1998 and lived in Canberra, Genia came to the BBC school in Oz to board when he was 12 years old but he probably has a PNG passport.
Not quite to the point but what gets up my nose is when SAffer commentators like Bladen read off their notes and say so and so was a league player, when some of them played both codes as younger boys and went to a pro league team straight out of their school 1st XV union side. That is another problem that SAffer rugby union doesn't have that we wouldn't mind if they did.
Even Brit commentators make similar errors. In the Ulster v. Clermont Heineken Cup match Adam D'Arcy set up what in hindsight turned out to be the winning try. Commentator Jonnie Hammond said D'Arcy came to Belfast straight from the Manly league team. Give me a break Jonnie -he was playing for the Manly Marlins in the Shute Shield. They play rugby union.
End of little rant.
.
Both countries have problems in their rugby and the SAffer forum members have enlightened us with theirs. Much of what they said we have read in the past but were half forgotten, at least by me, and it's good to see them again to jog the memory - and all in one place.
It must be a bitch to have quotas, official or unofficial. We don't think of that. We think how lucky they are that they can fund their excellent Currie Cup and Vodacom Cup competitions with a TV market share we can't even day dream about. With only 5 pro rugby teams on TV here but also (IIRR) 17 Aussie Rules and 15 NRL pro teams, we're left with about only 15% the non-soccer TV pot. That's just a guess.
We should never be in doubt about why JON wanted a longer Super season. There is bitching about how much he is paid but it is probably not enough.
Just going back to the mention of brown/black players: Beale, Kepu, Palu, TPN, Cooper, Samo and Genia - nearly half the starting Oz team.
Most of them probably have Oz passports. Beale, Kepu, Palu and TPN were born in Australia. Of the others: Cooper came with his parents to Oz and went to high school here; Samo came to Oz in 1998 and lived in Canberra, Genia came to the BBC school in Oz to board when he was 12 years old but he probably has a PNG passport.
Not quite to the point but what gets up my nose is when SAffer commentators like Bladen read off their notes and say so and so was a league player, when some of them played both codes as younger boys and went to a pro league team straight out of their school 1st XV union side. That is another problem that SAffer rugby union doesn't have that we wouldn't mind if they did.
Even Brit commentators make similar errors. In the Ulster v. Clermont Heineken Cup match Adam D'Arcy set up what in hindsight turned out to be the winning try. Commentator Jonnie Hammond said D'Arcy came to Belfast straight from the Manly league team. Give me a break Jonnie -he was playing for the Manly Marlins in the Shute Shield. They play rugby union.
End of little rant.
.
HKTiger
Allen Oxlade (6)
Given the thread has been hijacked, if I may continue the hijacking.
As an Aussie who has lived in SA I'll provide a slight counter view. I think that quota's are a good thing and do need to be enforced.
The path to a team like the Springboks, is impossible for an Eastern Cape youngster to envisage without someone to aspire to emulate. Chester Williams was a trailblazer and still is an icon for many in South Africa. The reason that quota's are needed cannot be ignored. The political system that brought this on needs to be undone. If that requires a period of struggle until a balance of quality youngsters come through and a full meritocracy is in place so be it. There actually seems to be good progress in this and there are quality non-whites playing at the visible levels in SA. If they are there on a quota basis or as a part of a meritocracy I cannot judge. If they are there as quota players then the onus is on the SARU to improve the quality of the non-white youngsters so that it becomes a meritocracy. Having watched Rugby in a couple of Eastern Cape pubs where I was one of a very few whites, I have seen the passion that a broader population has for the game. And these guys do need their idols/heroes and trailblazers.
I recognise that my views may polarise, but the abhorrent history comes with a cost. And unfortunately that cost will be paid until an equality is established.
In a related sport I recall how Makhaya Ntini was initially derided for being a token selection. His career says that was not correct. And a more dignified sportsman and talisman you cannot meet.
(Note: I am doing my best to avoid politics but I do recognise that there is a political background/tone.)
As an Aussie who has lived in SA I'll provide a slight counter view. I think that quota's are a good thing and do need to be enforced.
The path to a team like the Springboks, is impossible for an Eastern Cape youngster to envisage without someone to aspire to emulate. Chester Williams was a trailblazer and still is an icon for many in South Africa. The reason that quota's are needed cannot be ignored. The political system that brought this on needs to be undone. If that requires a period of struggle until a balance of quality youngsters come through and a full meritocracy is in place so be it. There actually seems to be good progress in this and there are quality non-whites playing at the visible levels in SA. If they are there on a quota basis or as a part of a meritocracy I cannot judge. If they are there as quota players then the onus is on the SARU to improve the quality of the non-white youngsters so that it becomes a meritocracy. Having watched Rugby in a couple of Eastern Cape pubs where I was one of a very few whites, I have seen the passion that a broader population has for the game. And these guys do need their idols/heroes and trailblazers.
I recognise that my views may polarise, but the abhorrent history comes with a cost. And unfortunately that cost will be paid until an equality is established.
In a related sport I recall how Makhaya Ntini was initially derided for being a token selection. His career says that was not correct. And a more dignified sportsman and talisman you cannot meet.
(Note: I am doing my best to avoid politics but I do recognise that there is a political background/tone.)
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