Breakaway English, French, Saffa super rugby plans

[WorkingClassRugger]

There have been regular calls on this and other forums for Aus and NZ to go it alone with the PI teams. I take you would be happy in that case that neither team ever play SA again for such awful betrayal. A bit over the top?

I think eventually SANZAR will disband. Economics will dictate.

For now with the new 4N, TC contracts sewn up etc there is little to no chance of any changes in the next few years.

To be fair most of those alternative models I have seen have been in response to the SARU and its threats to take its ball and bat and play with the other children.

 

[whatty]

If I was living in SA (i can only hope) again I would probably be fairly happy to play NH sides instead of the current S15 set up. Evening games and no 3am kick off's and probably more money in the SARFU coffers with the bigger TV audiences. Players probably prefer it with less travel and same time zones.

 

[Blue]

To be fair most of those alternative models I have seen have been in response to the SARU and its threats to take its ball and bat and play with the other children.

True. SA's negotiation tactics are not something to be proud of. For that I blame Hoskins and Marinos. SA rugby would be better off to get rid of these clowns. One clown down, two to go.

But there have been definite calls to shaft SA.

I still maintain that fitting SA teams into a NH schedule looks all but impossible.

 

[whatty]

I still maintain that fitting SA teams into a NH schedule looks all but impossible.

Probably but I still feel a good proportion players and spectators would be preferable for the reasons I mentioned?

 

[PaarlBok]

If I was living in SA (i can only hope) again I would probably be fairly happy to play NH sides instead of the current S15 set up. Evening games and no 3am kick off's and probably more money in the SARFU coffers with the bigger TV audiences. Players probably prefer it with less travel and same time zones.

The dull unfair S100 marathon that is killing the golden goose aint helping. The quicker we move with the NH the better for our and NZ's rugby. I'll rather see the small provinces in SA like Boland, Griquas, Pumas and Leopards and NZ's Northland, Tasman, Southland, North hatrbour included in the CC/ITM compare to the current funding of Australians playing provincial rugby in this never ending conferense rugby marathon. This model failed miserably and will kill itself in the near future.

Those small provinces is the heartbeat of both SA and NZ rugby. Throw in long tours home and away between the two countries and I am pretty sure they'll not only attrack mopre spectators to the matches but will also earn much more money for both countries.

For this we need admins with balls and brains which obvious Tew and Hoskins dont have. Future will tell.

Watching the Munsters vs Nortampton Heineken match and there was more quality play and much better spirit with a packed passionate crowd compare the dull shite we have to swallow down south.

 

[Mank]

If I was living in SA (i can only hope) again I would probably be fairly happy to play NH sides instead of the current S15 set up. Evening games and no 3am kick off's and probably more money in the SARFU coffers with the bigger TV audiences. Players probably prefer it with less travel and same time zones.

I wouldn't prefer it. I don't like the Super rugby model of ever increasing length, it should be shortened, but I am certain that the standard of rugby we play in it is what keeps the SH dominant over the NH.

SA moving out of this comp will be to the detriment of our national game, and why do you care about the 'coffers' so much?

 

[PaarlBok]

I wouldn't prefer it. I don't like the Super rugby model of ever increasing length, it should be shortened, but I am certain that the standard of rugby we play in it is what keeps the SH dominant over the NH.

SA moving out of this comp will be to the detriment of our national game, and why do you care about the 'coffers' so much?

I am not to sure about that anymore. Maybe the All Blacks , not the other two and I have my doubt about the S15 vs HC these days. Playing in front of empty stadiums dont help the SH teams in any way.

That however is not my worry, its the cut in CC/ITM teams that bodder me. It will reduce our professional player stock in SA which will cost us in future.

 

[Blue]

I wouldn't prefer it. I don't like the Super rugby model of ever increasing length, it should be shortened, but I am certain that the standard of rugby we play in it is what keeps the SH dominant over the NH.

SA moving out of this comp will be to the detriment of our national game, and why do you care about the 'coffers' so much?

Did you watch the Heineken Cup this weekend?

Higher standards in Super Rugby is a complete myth.

The majority of the Super teams will find Munster, Leinster, Northampton and Toulouse tough going and I would say won't beat them over there.

Ps Come to think of it I would prefer it as it would be something new and different.

Play in a comp like that but stay in the 4N for tests would be good.

 

[Brisbok]

Did you watch the Heineken Cup this weekend?

Higher standards in Super Rugby is a complete myth.

The majority of the Super teams will find Munster, Leinster, Northampton and Toulouse tough going and I would say won't beat them over there.

Ps Come to think of it I would prefer it as it would be something new and different.

Play in a comp like that but stay in the 4N for tests would be good.

Thinking quite selfishly, I would prefer that they continue to play in Super Rugby! Living in Australia, I could not bear having to watch ANOTHER sporting event in the early hours of the morning! I quite enjoy watching the South African teams play between the hours of 3pm and 10pm on a Friday or Saturday evening when they're touring Australia and New Zealand!

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Reality is from an NZ perspective is that we need the SA money. Simple as that. Without it, we'd have about 40% of the players we do now as the rest will be earning much larger coin in Japan, France and Britain/Ireland.

that's SARU's bargaining chip and they know it.

It's only due the brilliance of John O'Neill in negotiating things that we have the deals we have. Once SARU get somebody in with business acumen and/or brains, it could be he beginning of the end for us. WE'll need to have the AB's playing every weekend in Asia, US, Brazil, wherever in order to fund the sport.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Did you watch the Heineken Cup this weekend?

Higher standards in Super Rugby is a complete myth.

The majority of the Super teams will find Munster, Leinster, Northampton and Toulouse tough going and I would say won't beat them over there.

Ps Come to think of it I would prefer it as it would be something new and different.

Play in a comp like that but stay in the 4N for tests would be good.

NH rugby can be quite good, but there are plenty of games which turn the myth into reality.

I watched Worcester vs Stade Francais the other night - probably the worst game I've seen in a long time. Skills/execution were woeful. I think the average passage of play was about 30 secs before a whistle for a knock on/infringement, neither team wanted to really attack the line.

There are games every weekend in NH rugby which agree with both sides of the myth.

 

[Hardtackle]

Is it not true that Saffa's see the biggest challenge playing against the kiwis and aussies? Can't see them foregoing that. Sure we'd both still play them in the odd test match but would they really give up regular battles vs the AB's and Wallabies?

 

[Blue]

Is it not true that Saffa's see the biggest challenge playing against the kiwis and aussies? Can't see them foregoing that. Sure we'd both still play them in the odd test match but would they really give up regular battles vs the AB's and Wallabies?

Who's talking about not playing the AB's or Wallabies? That would be insane.

Frankly I think if SA played a club comp up North, and then the Boks embark on an extended Tour down here every year and the AB's and Wobs come to SA, I'd be very happy. In fact it could be the 3N/4N as is? Who knows, but give up test against the other SH nations? Nup.

 

[Blue]

NH rugby can be quite good, but there are plenty of games which turn the myth into reality.

I watched Worcester vs Stade Francais the other night - probably the worst game I've seen in a long time. Skills/execution were woeful. I think the average passage of play was about 30 secs before a whistle for a knock on/infringement, neither team wanted to really attack the line.

There are games every weekend in NH rugby which agree with both sides of the myth.

And there are some fucken horrible Super Rugby games and some of the CC and ITM games this year have been absolutely shite.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

And there are some fucken horrible Super Rugby games and some of the CC and ITM games this year have been absolutely shite.

yes of course. Although in my opinion, a bad S15/ITM cup game is better than a bad NH club game. That's probably because I have a much more vested interest in it.

 

[Lee Grant]

Major

Agree that game you mention was dire but it was an Amlin Cup game for teams that don't qualify for the HC - not that there can't be crap games in the HC. Great and rotten games are evident in both the HC and Super Rugby, and there are probably more dud ones in the HC because of the poor weather and ground conditions they get in the HC windows sometimes; but what I like about the Heineken Cup is the drama.

You can get a test match type game like Munster v Northampton in Rd. 1 of the S15 but it will never have the drama of the HC result in Rd. 1 of the Heineken Cup. The loser in Super Rugby has heaps of other games to make up the leeway but in the HC there are only 4 sides in each pool.

With home and away fixtures there are only 6 pool games for each team; so a loss has a malign influence on the losing side's chances. Even if they are still favoured to get second in the pool after a home loss they know they will likely have to play away in the quarter final, whereas their victorious opponents are likely to play at home..

I have never seen teams strive so hard to earn a losing bonus point if they are are 8 or more points behind near the end of the game. That point means so much with only 6 pool games.

For drama Super Rugby can compare with it only in the final weeks of the competition.

 

[Hardtackle]

Who's talking about not playing the AB's or Wallabies? That would be insane.

Frankly I think if SA played a club comp up North, and then the Boks embark on an extended Tour down here every year and the AB's and Wobs come to SA, I'd be very happy. In fact it could be the 3N/4N as is? Who knows, but give up test against the other SH nations? Nup.

Timing could be difficult as our main test series is different to the NH. I can't see that SA will be able to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Brisbok]

Timing could be difficult as our main test series is different to the NH. I can't see that SA will be able to have their cake and eat it too.

Much like Australia have got with the extended Super Rugby season (which will have a significant impact on the Currie Cup and ITM cup which have been running in South Africa and New Zealand for decades) to cover for their lack of a strong domestic competition? Or the addition of a 5th Super Rugby team to cater for their approx 87,000 rugby participants at the expense of an additional team in New Zealand (approx 138,000 participants) or South Africa (approx. 632,000 participants?) (http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/05/01/worldwide-rugby-on-the-rise/)


I think Major was spot on with his comment below.

...It's only due the brilliance of John O'Neill in negotiating things that we have the deals we have. Once SARU get somebody in with business acumen and/or brains, it could be he beginning of the end for us.

These deals are quite secure though because it's unlikely that SARU will appoint anyone with business acumen and/or brains in the near future...

 

[Karl]

Back to this "size of SA rugby supporter base thing.

How big is it really? My gut was saying "Can't be that much bigger can it? They play a lot of soccer, there are a lot of prople who wouldn't care less about the game" - so I did some homework.

SA has a population of 50,000,000 people made up along these lines, according to Wikipedia:

79.5% Black
9.0% White
9.0% Coloured
2.5% Asian

I'm not thinking that rural, impoverished, black South Africans are getting along to a lot of games are they? Lets keep looking.

According to the IRB South Africa has 434,219 registered players broken down into: 157,980 pre-teen males; 121,879 teen males; 143,722 senior males (total male players 423,581); 1,653 pre-teen females; 5,504 teen females; 3,481 senior females (total female players 10,638).

In 2009, IRB figures show there are just over 38,000 registered adult rugby union players in Australia, of which the states of New South Wales and Queensland account for 82.3% of all senior players.

Wait, what?


In Australia -

Registered players
86,952 (total)
41,049 (adult)
Clubs - 770

In South Africa (these numbers from the same wikipedia article are different) -


Registered players

632,184 (total)
118,120(adult)
198,175(Teen)
315,889 (Pre-teen)

Clubs - 1453


Thats TWICE the clubs and nearly THREE TIMES the adult players.

(I suspect that we're not comparing apples with apples on the teen and pre-teen numbers so just ignore those.)

Even if these numbers are rubbery, it's clear that the Rugby Scene in SA is much bigger than in Australia.

(NZ by the way -


Registered players

137,835 (total)
28,288 (adults)

Clubs - 595

This tells me that NZ has a MUCH higher proportion of junior player engagement to select their small number of aduly players from than we do)

 

[Brisbok]

Thats TWICE the clubs and nearly THREE TIMES the adult players.(I suspect that we're not comparing apples with apples on the teen and pre-teen numbers so just ignore those.)

This illustrates how well John O'Neill has done in his negotiations to be able come out with an even number of Super Rugby teams for all three nations.

It obviously helped that the Lions and Cheetahs perenially finished in the bottom two or three places in the Super 14 or Super 12. This has more to do with poor administration in these unions and questionable coaching appointments than a lack of playing resources though!