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Australian Rugby / RA

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
That's a good point.

Obviously, ideally, you'd want any post-Super comp to be a pathway for club players to step up. But (just for this year) do the Super Rugby teams (minus their test players) have enough players in their wider squads to play on without bringing in any/many club players?

I'm just wondering if we're getting to the point where, if an Oz Super Rugby team wants to get ahead, they will try and keep their players playing together post SRP (Super Rugby Pacific), rather than sending them back to the clubs.

I actually think we should run it leading into the November test window. It would provide us with a bit of clear air operate. Would be a better measure of talent in terms of development and potential than what seems like the worlds longest pre-season. Give both the SRU and BRU a rep team in it to select a team a piece as a means of 1)engaging with them and 2) a means of identifying talent that may have been missed.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
This video claims that the 2019 RWC Springboks are more cohesive due to consistency of selection than the Wallabies but misses the fact they came from 11 different pro clubs where as the Wallabies came from 6. Says France are successful due to consistency of selection but missed the fact they have 30 professional teams.

Teams of high cohesion have high cohesion because they have good players that play well that they continue to select. Gainline always talk about the Melbourne Storm and QRL team but fail to talk about the fact those teams included some of the greatest players ever to play the game. Should the Wallabies continue to pick guys who play sh*t just so their TWI is higher? Chekia picked every lock in the country trying to get someone to standup and show something. It wasn;'t his fault none of them owned the position. Sure it is easier to play well you are comfortable with the player next to you but that doesn't cause your skill to drop.
This whole thing can be largely summed up by saying that correlation doesn't equal causation.

I think this is the key thing. Cohesion is a recurring theme in successful teams but it's very much chicken and egg. They're ending up with the cohesion because they are good players who stay together and succeed together.

Unquestionably there has been a lack of talent for a fair while and it wasn't until the Under 20 RWC in 2019 where we finally had a very talented group of players that it feels like we have the cattle to really start competing again at test level now that they're a few years older.
Does cohesion only work at an international level? The video compares the 2019 Springboks vs the Wallabies and only focuses on, the % of players who've played together for more than 2 years at the Sprinbgok.

But, the video also talks about the Wallabies having spread their talent across multiple Super Rugby teams and diluting the cohesion.

The 2019 Springbok squad had a total of 33 players who played across 12 separate club teams. The Wallabies had 31 players who played across 5 teams (at the time of RWC, Nic White played for the Chiefs).
Sorry I missed some of these comments. I'll just do one big reply with some thoughts, and then I'll leave it alone. You guys (and others) can feel free to have the final say.

It's probably important to say that GLA don't refer to 'cohesion' the way almost every rugby journalist and commentator does. The term, 'cohesion', as used by GLA, refers to a level of understanding, which can be objectively measured. But it's not simple to measure. My understanding is that GLA use a complex algorithm, which takes into account three main areas of understanding: 1. the understanding between players (their shared experiences, combinations, etc); 2. a player's understanding of their roll within a team (e.g. how long they've been playing a certain position, etc); and 3. a player's understanding of the program (e.g. pathways, how the team works, the game plan, defensive structure, relationship with current coach, etc). All 3 affect a team's capacity for cohesion.

GLA also measure the cohesion of teams within the team. So for example, the level of understanding between the forward pack is more significant than the shared experience between a prop and a wing. Likewise, the understanding between the front row in itself is highly significant, etc.

How cohesion affects the performance of an individual system is nothing new. There are plenty of academic studies outside of sport on this. GLA are just the first (to my knowledge) to apply it to sport.

To suggest that GLA's measured level of cohesion has simply correlated with the Wallabies decline, rather than been a significant cause, is to discount literally thousands of hours of data analysis across not only multiple rugby teams, but multiple team sports worldwide. Their research really is that extensive!

I think there's probably other factors with the 2019 Springboks that we're not seeing. For example, not only were their selections more consistent than most for about 2 years prior to the world cup, but about half their entire squad had come through the Stormers set-up at some stage. Likewise, I think more than half of the starting 15, and most significant of all, 6 out of the 8 starting forward pack! And how important was their fwd pack in winning?! Coming from a single system makes a big difference to a team's level of cohesion. It's like all those players coming from the same family, or working for the same small company, or being familiar with operating an Apple iphone as opposed to an android. There is ingrained habits and a shared understanding. So already, that's 2 out of the 3 main ways of building cohesion just in terms of the level of understanding among the players.

Likewise for France. Apparently, their performance has not been any surprise to GLA. They claim they're tracking according to their numbers. Like SA, part of the reason has been their consistency in selections, but another reason I'm sure, is that a core part of the team has come through the Toulouse set-up. And Toulouse is not just an ordinary team, but a highly stable and cohesive team in itself (according to GLA). In any case, again, that's 2 out of the 3 main ways of building cohesion just in terms of understanding among the players. GLA also credit other factors in contributing to their cohesion, such as their overall stability and pathways.

The point is, it doesn't matter whether any of us think a particular team has the capacity for a high level of cohesion or not, what matters is whether GLA thinks they do, and whether their numbers are consistent with a team's performance. Because, while teams sometimes underperform, if GLA's numbers are predictive of performance, then we should be listening to them when they tell us what they're consistently finding to be the cause of that performance.

It's not really a chicken and egg thing. Generally speaking, the order goes: playing together over time increases a team's capacity for cohesion. Higher levels of cohesion improve a team's performance (unless a team underperforms). In this way, cohesion contributes to performance, not the other way round.

Yes, a newish team might perform well, which leads to the players getting re-selected and playing together longer, which then increases their capacity for cohesion. But no one denies that skill/talent also contributes to a team's performance. However, it's not their performance per se that contributes to their level of cohesion. Cohesion is not dependent upon a team's performance or success. For example, an u15 team might have a higher level of cohesion than other teams, but may never win if those other teams are a bunch of professional teams. However, the GLA algorithm won't suddenly suggest the u15 team must have lower levels of cohesion than other teams, or that other teams must have higher levels of cohesion just because they're able to beat the u15 team.

Talent/skill and cohesion are two seperate factors that influence the performance of a team. Both contribute. However, among professional teams, GLA have found that cohesion is a stronger predictor of a team's performance than their level of skill.

And in fact, GLA have found that cohesion affects whether a player will be able to perform to their skill level capacity or not. This is why a team like the Crusaders or Storm can drop a 19 yr old kid in, and almost immediately, they look like they're test quality. Or why a good player can move to a new club, and all of a sudden they're not so good anymore. Cohesion and stability within a team can accelerate (or hinder) a player reaching their skill capacity. So while skill affects performance, cohesion can enhance the potential impact of the skill level on performance.

The Wallabies might have significant talent coming through our pathways, and yes, their cohesion levels and performance will increase as they play longer together, but it won't be enough for consistent success if cohesion levels are below that of other teams. Or to put it positively, we will be able to better help our talent reach its capacity if we have a system that intensionally builds cohesion at all levels.

But how does a team build cohesion if it relies on consistently selecting players who are playing well? How can they be consistently playing well before they build cohesion? The simple answer is, while you do need to pick your best players, sometimes you also need to 'pick and stick' in order to build cohesion and allow players to reach their skill level capacity. Having said that, building cohesion is not just limited to consistent selection. In this respect, GLA have found that cohesion is highest for teams that build talent from the ground up, rather than import it from a different system.

On Melbourne Storm and Qld having some of the greatest players to ever play the game, the question is, would those players have been as great if they weren't playing alongside each other in such a stable environment? What are the chances of three of the greatest players in Cronk, Slater, and Cameron Smith all playing together for the Norths Devils at the same time prior to the Storm? Were any of them predicted to be as great as they were? I'm betting not. While skilful players make a team good, I think even more so, a stable and cohesive team makes good players better.

Anyway, they're just my thoughts I wanted to get out. I know I've said way too much, so now I'll just keep my mouth shut for a while, sit back, and watch you guys tear me to shreds. :eek:
 

Tomikin

David Codey (61)
The club rugby season isn't due to start in QLD and NSW for another 4 weeks.

Grand Finals to be played in early September.

I believe Super Rugby Pacific Grand Final to be played in June. I don't think pillaging the club teams for extra players during the middle of their season would go down well.

Any additional competition will have to run from September - November
Isn't that just representative rugby, the clubs lose players to the next level up.. tough shit.
 

Bandar

Bob Loudon (25)
Isn't that just representative rugby, the clubs lose players to the next level up.. tough shit.
I tend to agree but also know that the Sydney (not sure on the situation in Brisbane) will actively attempt to wreck a competition so best to try to work with them and hopefully they will be able to give a bit of ground as well.
 

PhilClinton

Mark Loane (55)
Isn't that just representative rugby, the clubs lose players to the next level up.. tough shit.

Yes but why ruin your supporter base by playing a new competition in the middle of club season?

I assure you, any 'NRC' games played on a Saturday will get minimal turnout because the grassroots clubs will have all the supporters.

Games played during the week will also get minimal turnout and viewership because a large chunk of the fans are training at least twice a week, sometimes three times a week, to play their own games that weekend.

Better off just waiting until they can get the full attention of the intended audience.
 

Tomikin

David Codey (61)
@PhilClinton - But this is whatever other support does, they have Club / State / International.. and if someone is good enough to play up a level then they get selected and train with the higher team and play in a tougher comp.. Supporters will come if the games are between the Tahs/Brumbies/Reds/Force/Rebels, just like they do currently for super rugby.

@Wilson - We are trying to get players who sit on the bench or in the squad more rugby at a HIGHER Level of the game. Putting it off to run something at end just seems silly, we should just role straight into it.. This means the best club players get higher level rugby and the lower level players all filter up.

Granted, I am not a club rugby person, never watched a game don't care to much about it, never played rugby, Im a fan of the sport and I love it because of my team the Brumbies and my emotional connection from going to games all through my youth with friends.

But just seems straight forward to me :)
 

PhilClinton

Mark Loane (55)
Appreciate your different point of view Tomikin but I don't think I can agree on this one.

One of the big draw cards for clubs at the back end of their season is the returning non-Wallaby Super Rugby players. It draws bigger crowds to home games and usually quite a number of spectators who are casual invested. Not to mention the experience they bring being in the club setup for a couple of weeks, it can leave a lasting impression on the next generation.

I don't think any solutions where clubs are deprived of their returning Super Rugby players and also have a number of their other top players removed from the team is the solution for making rugby great again in Australia. Why bother having Super Rugby contracted players even nominate for a club team if they're going to play Super Rugby all year and then roll straight into another competition?

I also appreciate this is likely a more strongly held opinion by those in NSW and QLD. So for a more impartial opinion - I don't think competing against Australia's other main codes in August/September/October is a great idea either from a viewership perspective. Playing the 'new NRC' at the end of club season means open slather in terms of being the only televised local footy being played.
 

Wilson

Phil Kearns (64)
@Wilson - We are trying to get players who sit on the bench or in the squad more rugby at a HIGHER Level of the game. Putting it off to run something at end just seems silly, we should just role straight into it.. This means the best club players get higher level rugby and the lower level players all filter up.
Sure, but running it after the club season isn't just "something at the end" - there's still a fair few tests to run in the year at that point and Wallabies pushing for selection or coming back from injury need somewhere to do it. Running post club season also means the squad players get both the higher level game time and the club game time, ensuring the standards rise there too. If we're trying to make sure those squad guys are getting 30+ games of rugby per year then ~10 extra games of NRC instead of club rugby isn't enough, they're going to need as much of the club season as possible to get there. Also worth noting that some of those higher level club players arguably need a full club season to make sure they're ready for NRC.

Look I'm no big fan of club rugby either, but trying to run another competition at the same time that sucks even more players out of it just seems inefficent and spiteful, aside from being politically impossible.
 

PhilClinton

Mark Loane (55)
Interesting that rugby isn't even on this list of Queensland's most expensive kids sports - I note it's just an article published in the Courier Mail and they don't reference the figures, but I still would have thought rugby would pop up considering how many juniors play the game.

I think currently it sits somewhere around $400 per year.

1647321146957.png
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Interesting that rugby isn't even on this list of Queensland's most expensive kids sports - I note it's just an article published in the Courier Mail and they don't reference the figures, but I still would have thought rugby would pop up considering how many juniors play the game.

I think currently it sits somewhere around $400 per year.

View attachment 13172
I think its more about it being The Courier Mail than we are cheaper than the others.
 

Wilson

Phil Kearns (64)
So lets do what we are doing now.. and all will be great in the world.
No one is arguing that we don't need to do something different, just that there's literally no good reason to attack club rugby when there's a perfectly good and arguably better window for the competition immediately afterwards. We need to be bringing people into the tent, not pushing them out.
 
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