Dismal Pillock
Michael Lynagh (62)
my stab at what an aussie version might look like. might need some local expert additional input
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
ForceFan
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Twiggy' warms to Australian rugby as Force exile ends
Georgina Robinson - SMH - 11 July 2020
Mining magnate Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest says he is open to making a large-scale financial investment in Australia’s Super Rugby replacement, but only if the code makes massive reforms to its state-based administration.
In an exclusive interview with the Herald ahead of the Western Force’s return from a two-year exile from Australian rugby, Forrest said he would be willing to point Tattarang, the private equity arm of his $14 billion empire, at rugby, if the conditions were right at head office.
"I don’t have to answer that with words, you have seen me invest in the Western Force and create Global Rapid Rugby from scratch and own it lock, stock and barrel. That’s a very far-sighted investment and I’m used to doing that," he said.
"We didn’t look like making a dividend for the first eight years with Fortescue Metals Group. This is long term, patient, private equity and that’s the difference between Tattarang and every other private equity outlet working in sport. They all want a return in two or three years, which is a negative for a game. If we want long term results, we need long-term thinking."
In the space of a few months, a leadership change at Rugby Australia and the COVID-19 shutdown of sport have taken Forrest and Rugby Australia from bitterly estranged bedfellows to cautious partners on the verge of reconciliation.
The team is playing in Super Rugby AU under the same funding arrangement as the Brumbies, Rebels, Waratahs and Reds (Footnote 1) and new RA chairman Hamish McLennan has made it clear he sees the Force as a non-negotiable part of A ia's professional landscape next year.
Backing up the sentiment was McLennan's appointment of Fortescue Metals Group chief executive Elizabeth Gaines to a high-powered advisory board for Australia's upcoming 2027 Rugby World Cup bid. Meanwhile, Tattarang pledged $5 million over the next five years to building "grassroots to elite pathways" in Western Australia.
McLennan is working hard to prove to Forrest the new RA administration has a new attitude. As many have noted, it would be foolish not to keep one of Australia's richest men in the fold.
But what does 'Twiggy' want?
"The administration of Rugby Australia needs to stay on the trajectory that Hamish has it on. In a practical sense, aiming firstly for best practice and then for world's best," Forrest responds.
"I've been clear to Hamish that we are supporting the trajectory and that we'd like him to be unreasonable in his own expectations of the administration's performance. That's what the game in Australia deserves.
"We're not going to give an unconditional guarantee but what we will give is that encouragement and we will continue to support the administration while the administration strongly supports the entire game in Australia."
Forrest is scathing of previous RA administrations and boards, describing as "inept" the game's broader structure of powerful state unions and a national governing body that could not extricate itself from an ailing Super Rugby.
It's a frustration shared by many supporters, as well as current and past directors. One long-serving and influential director recently told the Herald he considered it his greatest regret that the board could not modernise and align the state-based structure of the code.
"Rugby should be the premier sport in the world, it caters for all shapes and sizes, for boys and girls, for young and old, and it builds up communities. It just has governing bodies that get in the road," Forrest said.
"We know that Hamish McLennan knows that the structure of the administration has to change. The dreadful situation we have now is that the administrations between all the states are as competitive as the teams when they run on to the field. When one competes against the other they're making the game poorer. We simply have to have them all pulling in the same direction."
Whether Australian rugby will embrace Forrest's commercial mindset remains to be seen. But after funding the Force for the past two years (Footnote 2) and starting Global Rapid Rugby, the 59-year-old cannot be accused of being another billionaire businessman with deep pockets but no experience in sport.
Indeed, only a person of Forrest's extreme wealth and passion might have survived Rapid Rugby's difficult first two years. The pan-Asian competition was supposed to launch in its full format in 2019 but soft broadcast interest and a challenge finding teams of sufficient strength to participate pushed the launch timeline to 2020. Then COVID-19 hit and, like Super Rugby and every other professional competition in the world, Rapid Rugby was cancelled before it began.
Forrest maintains it was a net success for a start-up - Force home games averaged crowds of 12,300 in 2018 and just shy of 10,000 last year - and had lessons for the professional game in Australia.
"It was no less challenging than trying to get Fortescue Metals Group group off the ground, every time time you stepped in the water there was a crocodile there, but you still had to cross the creek," he said.
"I think you'll see a form of it, whether it evolves into another competition or another competition evolves into it. I strongly recommend to anyone in rugby administration if you play within a time zone so all your fans can watch it without having to get up at 3am in the morning, then you'll do better.
The beauty of rugby is that it's international but you shouldn’t go so far as to make that a punishment for fans. Invite in other countries who love the game and are in your time zone."
On Saturday the Force come in from the cold, playing the Waratahs at the Sydney Cricket Ground in a neat echo of the side's final Super Rugby game, a charged 40-11 smash-up of NSW in Perth in 2017.
Forrest, who managed to fit a visit to Force training in around his $30 million purchase of two Kimberley cattle stations this week, says it will be a moment to savour.
"It's pretty emotional, they were cut in the most cruel and unfair circumstances, they'd acquitted themselves very well that season and when they were cut I'd already given a guarantee for their financial obligations, so there was really no reason," he said. RA board notes from that period recorded an 11th-hour offer from Forrest of between $10 and $50 million in tied funding to the Australian Rugby Foundation, to be overseen by Forrest-appointed trustees.
"Yet still, the leadership at the time wanted to build up Victoria at any cost to the game nationally, so it cut us and took our coach and many players to Victoria and the rest is history. They continued to go broke.
"[Western Australia] was one of the only states where the fan base was growing and not shrinking when they were cut and in some ways being cut has really strengthened the resolve of that base.
"I think we're all feeling a sense of excitement that when the boys run out in blue they'll be the underdogs of all five teams. But what they'll be doing, like any great Australian underdog, is fighting. And as they say, it's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog."
Footnote 1: Gross misrepresentation by Robinson. Forrest is 100% funding the Western Force's involvement in SRAu in 2020 whereas the other 4 teams are getting funding distributions from RA's Super Rugby arrangements from Foxtel. WF gets no contributions to cover travel, accom. In addition the WF is the only team with players on 100% of contract.
Footnote 2: The WF was axed from Super Rugby by RA (its then owner) in August 2017. I suggest that it's been a lot closer to 3 years than 2 years. With the organisational costs of WSR, Asia/Pacific showcases and getting GRR up and going in 2020 this is likely to represent a ~$50 million support by Forrest.
Georgina Robinson - SMH - 11 July 2020
Mining magnate Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest says he is open to making a large-scale financial investment in Australia’s Super Rugby replacement, but only if the code makes massive reforms to its state-based administration.
In an exclusive interview with the Herald ahead of the Western Force’s return from a two-year exile from Australian rugby, Forrest said he would be willing to point Tattarang, the private equity arm of his $14 billion empire, at rugby, if the conditions were right at head office.
"I don’t have to answer that with words, you have seen me invest in the Western Force and create Global Rapid Rugby from scratch and own it lock, stock and barrel. That’s a very far-sighted investment and I’m used to doing that," he said.
"We didn’t look like making a dividend for the first eight years with Fortescue Metals Group. This is long term, patient, private equity and that’s the difference between Tattarang and every other private equity outlet working in sport. They all want a return in two or three years, which is a negative for a game. If we want long term results, we need long-term thinking."
In the space of a few months, a leadership change at Rugby Australia and the COVID-19 shutdown of sport have taken Forrest and Rugby Australia from bitterly estranged bedfellows to cautious partners on the verge of reconciliation.
The team is playing in Super Rugby AU under the same funding arrangement as the Brumbies, Rebels, Waratahs and Reds (Footnote 1) and new RA chairman Hamish McLennan has made it clear he sees the Force as a non-negotiable part of A ia's professional landscape next year.
Backing up the sentiment was McLennan's appointment of Fortescue Metals Group chief executive Elizabeth Gaines to a high-powered advisory board for Australia's upcoming 2027 Rugby World Cup bid. Meanwhile, Tattarang pledged $5 million over the next five years to building "grassroots to elite pathways" in Western Australia.
McLennan is working hard to prove to Forrest the new RA administration has a new attitude. As many have noted, it would be foolish not to keep one of Australia's richest men in the fold.
But what does 'Twiggy' want?
"The administration of Rugby Australia needs to stay on the trajectory that Hamish has it on. In a practical sense, aiming firstly for best practice and then for world's best," Forrest responds.
"I've been clear to Hamish that we are supporting the trajectory and that we'd like him to be unreasonable in his own expectations of the administration's performance. That's what the game in Australia deserves.
"We're not going to give an unconditional guarantee but what we will give is that encouragement and we will continue to support the administration while the administration strongly supports the entire game in Australia."
Forrest is scathing of previous RA administrations and boards, describing as "inept" the game's broader structure of powerful state unions and a national governing body that could not extricate itself from an ailing Super Rugby.
It's a frustration shared by many supporters, as well as current and past directors. One long-serving and influential director recently told the Herald he considered it his greatest regret that the board could not modernise and align the state-based structure of the code.
"Rugby should be the premier sport in the world, it caters for all shapes and sizes, for boys and girls, for young and old, and it builds up communities. It just has governing bodies that get in the road," Forrest said.
"We know that Hamish McLennan knows that the structure of the administration has to change. The dreadful situation we have now is that the administrations between all the states are as competitive as the teams when they run on to the field. When one competes against the other they're making the game poorer. We simply have to have them all pulling in the same direction."
Whether Australian rugby will embrace Forrest's commercial mindset remains to be seen. But after funding the Force for the past two years (Footnote 2) and starting Global Rapid Rugby, the 59-year-old cannot be accused of being another billionaire businessman with deep pockets but no experience in sport.
Indeed, only a person of Forrest's extreme wealth and passion might have survived Rapid Rugby's difficult first two years. The pan-Asian competition was supposed to launch in its full format in 2019 but soft broadcast interest and a challenge finding teams of sufficient strength to participate pushed the launch timeline to 2020. Then COVID-19 hit and, like Super Rugby and every other professional competition in the world, Rapid Rugby was cancelled before it began.
Forrest maintains it was a net success for a start-up - Force home games averaged crowds of 12,300 in 2018 and just shy of 10,000 last year - and had lessons for the professional game in Australia.
"It was no less challenging than trying to get Fortescue Metals Group group off the ground, every time time you stepped in the water there was a crocodile there, but you still had to cross the creek," he said.
"I think you'll see a form of it, whether it evolves into another competition or another competition evolves into it. I strongly recommend to anyone in rugby administration if you play within a time zone so all your fans can watch it without having to get up at 3am in the morning, then you'll do better.
The beauty of rugby is that it's international but you shouldn’t go so far as to make that a punishment for fans. Invite in other countries who love the game and are in your time zone."
On Saturday the Force come in from the cold, playing the Waratahs at the Sydney Cricket Ground in a neat echo of the side's final Super Rugby game, a charged 40-11 smash-up of NSW in Perth in 2017.
Forrest, who managed to fit a visit to Force training in around his $30 million purchase of two Kimberley cattle stations this week, says it will be a moment to savour.
"It's pretty emotional, they were cut in the most cruel and unfair circumstances, they'd acquitted themselves very well that season and when they were cut I'd already given a guarantee for their financial obligations, so there was really no reason," he said. RA board notes from that period recorded an 11th-hour offer from Forrest of between $10 and $50 million in tied funding to the Australian Rugby Foundation, to be overseen by Forrest-appointed trustees.
"Yet still, the leadership at the time wanted to build up Victoria at any cost to the game nationally, so it cut us and took our coach and many players to Victoria and the rest is history. They continued to go broke.
"[Western Australia] was one of the only states where the fan base was growing and not shrinking when they were cut and in some ways being cut has really strengthened the resolve of that base.
"I think we're all feeling a sense of excitement that when the boys run out in blue they'll be the underdogs of all five teams. But what they'll be doing, like any great Australian underdog, is fighting. And as they say, it's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog."
Footnote 1: Gross misrepresentation by Robinson. Forrest is 100% funding the Western Force's involvement in SRAu in 2020 whereas the other 4 teams are getting funding distributions from RA's Super Rugby arrangements from Foxtel. WF gets no contributions to cover travel, accom. In addition the WF is the only team with players on 100% of contract.
Footnote 2: The WF was axed from Super Rugby by RA (its then owner) in August 2017. I suggest that it's been a lot closer to 3 years than 2 years. With the organisational costs of WSR, Asia/Pacific showcases and getting GRR up and going in 2020 this is likely to represent a ~$50 million support by Forrest.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Hi twiggy you had me at hello...
You only get one twiggy in your life and pretty simple really if persons in RA can’t make this happen you replace them with persons who can. Quite frankly I would rather be held to ransom to twiggy who generally cares about oz rugby and rugby in the region then NZRU who can only give short term focus and priority for what they think is best for the ABs.
Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
Minor spoilers for Cru v Blues match:
Last night's conditions were fucking miserable and the first half was not great I concede but even with pristine conditions and 3 more games to prepare the best two attacking NZ teams got the same scoreline plus a measly try.
In the NZ game I counted many kick outs on the full, penalty kicks gone dead, heaps of overthrows, plenty of aimless kicking and some truly dumb rugby moments but no one noticed, it didn't detract from the game. We all are so anxious about our game here and have such a huge inferiority complex that it prevents us from enjoying it. You see it here on the forum and with the commentators, every single thing the NZ players did their commentators would be like, "by god that player just tied his shoelaces, single greatest thing to happen on the rugby pitch.
No shit NZ rugby is probably more skilful, they've had three more weeks to prepare and are the best in the world. This round for Aus is essentially still trial matches. Everyone needs to chill and enjoy the game.
I'm responding to Swing here but mostly others deathriding the Rebs v Reds game last night and generally Aus rugby.
Last night's conditions were fucking miserable and the first half was not great I concede but even with pristine conditions and 3 more games to prepare the best two attacking NZ teams got the same scoreline plus a measly try.
In the NZ game I counted many kick outs on the full, penalty kicks gone dead, heaps of overthrows, plenty of aimless kicking and some truly dumb rugby moments but no one noticed, it didn't detract from the game. We all are so anxious about our game here and have such a huge inferiority complex that it prevents us from enjoying it. You see it here on the forum and with the commentators, every single thing the NZ players did their commentators would be like, "by god that player just tied his shoelaces, single greatest thing to happen on the rugby pitch.
No shit NZ rugby is probably more skilful, they've had three more weeks to prepare and are the best in the world. This round for Aus is essentially still trial matches. Everyone needs to chill and enjoy the game.
Sweet! On the list twice.
Dismal Pillock
Michael Lynagh (62)
1% votes in a couple of categories. Your mum I suspect. Had no idea she was friends with Raelene.....
You know I'm technically a possible Kiwi, so i think it was Raelene.
waiopehu oldboy
George Smith (75)
Aunty Raelene or cousin Raelene? Your possible or actual kiwi status hangs on the balance here......
U wot, cuz?
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Don't get me started on this. Especially on twitter. It's a myth to suggest NZ games are incredibly superior to Aus ones. There's just an endless cycle to shit on Aus rugby and perceive NZ as the rugby gods. No one starts shitting on a Kiwi derby if they make simple errors, yet will not hesitate if there's one in an Aus game. It's getting infuriating.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
With the best will in the world, and as a very long-time Aussie rugby tragic, I have to say that there is a lot of truth in that myth. Mrs Wamberal and I can watch the Kiwi games right through, but sad to say, both Aussie games this weekend were just dire (caveat: we switched off the Tahs/Force game not long after lemons, when a burst of childish kicking broke out. Forcings back).
It might have something to do with the quality of the playing surfaces, it might have something to do with the camera angles, but surely nobody can argue that we are not deficient in some of the basic skills of the game? Kicking in particular. When they kick, it is almost always with good reason and good execution. And it never seems to be overdone. When we kick, and kick, and kick, for no apparent reason, like headless chooks, it is time to switch channels.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
Last night's game was plenty entertaining. I watched the Crusaders/Blues before hand and there were just as many balls going to ground or knocked on as with the Tahs/Force. The Tahs/Force game was actually more physical. Friday's game was a tough watch but last night was a huge improvement.
hifflepiff
Charlie Fox (21)
I personally find the NZ games fairly dull. That's no comment on the actual product which is obviously of a high level (although like others have said, I think people overstate it slightly) but more because I have absolutely no investment in any of the teams. I watched the games because I enjoy rugby and I can appreciate the strategy, skills etc, but from an emotional level it gets very little from me.
This may just be a personal thing though. I could watch a 2nd XV club game and be entertained so long as I have a personal investment and there's passion around it.
I will say on this though, the one thing that takes me out of Australian games compared to those in NZ is the commentary. My god are Australian commentators dull. I don't mind if Kearns is talking complete bullshit, but at least be passionate about it for fucks sake.
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
Commentators are woeful, they’ve forgotten their place in the game, they’re there to commentate on actually what’s happening in the game, yet instead they use it as a vehicle to provide their opinion on all things Rugby Union, and end up providing a shit run down of what’s actually happening in the game.
Say what you like about Gordon Bray, but i thought he was a good commentator, he stuck to what his job was.. I would happily go with a combinations of Gordon Bray and Sean Maloney for all rugby matches.
Say what you like about Gordon Bray, but i thought he was a good commentator, he stuck to what his job was.. I would happily go with a combinations of Gordon Bray and Sean Maloney for all rugby matches.
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
I think Maloney will get a gig once everything is sorted out, he hasn’t gone unnoticed. And I agree on Bray, I liked his commentary, my mum actually used to live upstairs from him.
I do like the idea of ex players being in the commentary box, but it needs to be someone who can sound enthusiastic, and I also reckon they should invest in at a level 2 coaching course for them so they can understand what the fuck they are commenting on. Horan for example was a world class 12 but doesn’t know how a scrum works. Kearns similar but the other way around. Personally I don’t mind Matt Burke as a commentator, at least he has had some proper media training. But he still needs to do the level 2 IMO.
I do like the idea of ex players being in the commentary box, but it needs to be someone who can sound enthusiastic, and I also reckon they should invest in at a level 2 coaching course for them so they can understand what the fuck they are commenting on. Horan for example was a world class 12 but doesn’t know how a scrum works. Kearns similar but the other way around. Personally I don’t mind Matt Burke as a commentator, at least he has had some proper media training. But he still needs to do the level 2 IMO.
My issue with Gregan, Kearns and Horan are that they just don't seem to know much about the players.
You rarely ever hear 'I liked how XXX played in the NRC last year'. Or 'His form in the U20 World Cup was impressive'. Or 'He's been tearing it up for GPS in club rugby'.
They knew nothing about the Force players beyond the one fact that they had in the media guide in front of them - we heard about Henry Stowers playing for Samoa about nine times, but nothing beyond that.
And you get countless small mistakes like George Gregan calling James Ramm 'John Ramm' (the Spanish golfer).
I have nothing against ex-players in the box, but it does feel a lot like they roll into the box on a Saturday night and go "OK, who's playing tonight lads?"
.
You rarely ever hear 'I liked how XXX played in the NRC last year'. Or 'His form in the U20 World Cup was impressive'. Or 'He's been tearing it up for GPS in club rugby'.
They knew nothing about the Force players beyond the one fact that they had in the media guide in front of them - we heard about Henry Stowers playing for Samoa about nine times, but nothing beyond that.
And you get countless small mistakes like George Gregan calling James Ramm 'John Ramm' (the Spanish golfer).
I have nothing against ex-players in the box, but it does feel a lot like they roll into the box on a Saturday night and go "OK, who's playing tonight lads?"
.
eastman
John Solomon (38)
Unfortunately I think that the likes of Horan and Kearns appeal to the rusted-on and conservative rugby supporters who are actually buying Foxtel packages.
They definitely need to bring on/ persist with more recent ex-players (e.g. Mitchell and Hoiles) who actually understand the modern game and all the systems and training that come with it. The game that Phil Kearns played 20 plus years ago is not remotely similar to the one played now.
They definitely need to bring on/ persist with more recent ex-players (e.g. Mitchell and Hoiles) who actually understand the modern game and all the systems and training that come with it. The game that Phil Kearns played 20 plus years ago is not remotely similar to the one played now.
eastman
John Solomon (38)
Kearns is the new Buddha - the biased colour commentator.