Australia vs South Africa - Brisbane 7th Sept 2013

[daz]

Bruce, given your knowledge on strength training, perhaps you could explain to me what the inner core is, and how it is exercised separately from the outer core?

I have always likened the inner core to the "engine". How hard and fast you can go in bursts, and the time it takes to recover to go again. The shorter the better.

As for the "outer core"? How bulky is your wrecking ball of a body to knock down walls.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

I have maintained for a while now that the Oz team lacks any intimidation or "mongrel" in its forwards. They all play as if they are more concerned about technique and doing all the "right" things in the game. There is not one forward there at the moment where the opposition has to say we need to control him because he will be a big influence in contact and make us doubt ourselves. NZ have it with players like McCaw, Reid, Romano. SA have it as we saw last weekend. Is it passion? Is it a desire to prove yourself to the be best? Is it simply a desire to do everything and ANYTHING to win the game? Whatever it is we aint got it. We are too nice. We play schoolboy ethics rugby.

Hopefully the coach will get mad and start kicking some arses and trying to instill some of this into his forwards. If things keep going as they are then only a handful of this team should go on the EOYT and the rest be given a farewell serve to try and get them to realise what it takes to win test footy. Don't care if they are beaten in every test up north just as long as they play with their hearts on their sleeves and cherish the right to play for the Wallabies. We have to start somewhere

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, given your knowledge on strength training, perhaps you could explain to me what the inner core is, and how it is exercised separately from the outer core?

I think your question actually should be addressed to daz, BPC, because I was quoting him. [Edit: I have just read daz's comment 2 posts above and now realise that it might be best if you don't address this question to him. He knows even less about the issue than I do.]

Rather than straying into an area where I am profoundly unqualified let me quote what appears to be an authoritative source:

The inner unit tonic muscles
The inner unit refers to the functional synergy between the deep muscles of the core.
The inner unit is composed of the Transversus abdominis, the posterior fibres of the Obliquus internus abdominis, the diaphragm, the pelvic floor muscles, the Multifidus and lumbar portions of the Longissimus and Iliocostalis. These muscles have their origin or insertion at the vertebrae and generate little or no movement during activation. Contraction of these deep core muscles provides segmental stabilisation of the spine.
The outer unit phasic muscles
The outer unit consists of many muscles such as the Obliquus externus, Obliquus internus, Erector spinae, Latissimus dorsi, Gluteus muscles, the Quadratus lumborum, adductors and hamstrings. The outer unit muscles have an important stability function when the body is under load (lifting weights) or during high-speed movements.
The outer unit controls the range of motion, generates movement and provides gross stability. (Core training part 1: Inner and outer unit)

When I first started weight training more than half a century ago we knew nothing whatsoever about core stabilisation. That is still basically the case so I will decline your invitation to pontificate about how the inner core is exercised separately from the outer core.
.

 

[Pfitzy]

I find it interesting that the forwards get a lot of the blame here. Yet I wonder if anyone has had a look at the number of turnovers in the first or second phase versus later phases?

Because, watching the last few Tests, I've seen we are very capable of getting over the gain line. The Boks were bloody impressive on Saturday, but at one point a stat came up early in the game that said we were making Advantage line much more often than they. We also beat up the ABs a fair bit in close too.

But we get turned over trying to play possession for too long. Now this isn't always the forwards' fault. Quite often they're busting arse to get to rucks, and yes their accuracy is not always there. But it is most frustrating to see them deliver prime, quick ball, and then see Genia fart-arse around with it.

It is at this time, more than any other, that you get caught behind the gain line because the opposition knows the ruck is lost, and have time to realign and pick off ball carriers. Sorry for stating the obvious, but there it is.

So let's start by going back to basics - Genia is woefully out of form, and Cooper isn't far behind. Anyone who said the Reds set the world on fire is dreaming. 2011 is a LONG time ago.

White, To'omua, Lilo in the midfield and the rest around them.

 

[Ash]

Scott Allen's video is interesting, for anyone who has watched it. Removes a bit of the myth how everything was Cooper's fault.

The truth is Cooper is an easy target as many do not like him, so he seems to be overly blamed here (and not just here, Paul Cully wrote a frankly ridiculous hatchet job article on Cooper inferring it was all Cooper's fault for the loss in the SMH, and another blogger wrote one at another big Australia sports blogging website).

This is largely in contrast to To'omua, who just shovelled it on in Bled 1, or shovelled it on or run to the line in Bled 2 (a noticeable improvement, but still not good). The difference between Cooper and To'omua on attack was that Cooper took the ball to the line on occasion before passing, wrapped and provided other options, basically he took more options. To'omua is much more vanilla.

To be honest, I thought that Cooper wasn't too bad and mainly took good options on attack, with the obvious exception of his forced pass when chasing the game the led to a turnover and Bok try (which was, by the way, his only turnover/error for the night). Here's a fun stat: Cooper had the LEAST amount of turnovers in the backline, tying on 1 with Folau.

If you took everything Cooper did on balance, his game was average. Which, when considering what the rest of the team dished up, he was actually one the better performers. Which is quite miserable.

If (some) people (here) are expecting a magic improvement in attack with To'omua there, it won't happen. There will be some small improvement in the kicking game, but going by the Bledisloe games, it won't be big, either. You'll get some advantage in defence, that's about it.

If you want to change the game plan to be more defence and kicking orientated, then yes, To'omua is your man. If you want to keep trying a more ball in hand attacking game plan, then Cooper is your man.

Neither are miracle workers, but some comments here either way seem to think so. The obsession that Cooper was somehow quite awful when he quite obviously wasn't is amazing, whether it's by the same few posters on this forum, or Paul Cully in the media, or other blogging sites.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I find it interesting that the forwards get a lot of the blame here. Yet I wonder if anyone has had a look at the number of turnovers in the first or second phase versus later phases?

Because, watching the last few Tests, I've seen we are very capable of getting over the gain line. The Boks were bloody impressive on Saturday, but at one point a stat came up early in the game that said we were making Advantage line much more often than they. We also beat up the ABs a fair bit in close too.

But we get turned over trying to play possession for too long. Now this isn't always the forwards' fault. Quite often they're busting arse to get to rucks, and yes their accuracy is not always there. But it is most frustrating to see them deliver prime, quick ball, and then see Genia fart-arse around with it.

It is at this time, more than any other, that you get caught behind the gain line because the opposition knows the ruck is lost, and have time to realign and pick off ball carriers. Sorry for stating the obvious, but there it is.

So let's start by going back to basics - Genia is woefully out of form, and Cooper isn't far behind. Anyone who said the Reds set the world on fire is dreaming. 2011 is a LONG time ago.

White, To'omua, Lilo in the midfield and the rest around them.

Agree Nick. The other thing is the Wallabies under Link have wanted to spread the ball side to side trying to exploit mismatches and holes in the defence, however as a Saders fan I know this is high risk stuff if you're aren't willing to hit rucks and clean players out as well.

 

[Bairdy]

Scott Allen's video is interesting, for anyone who has watched it. Removes a bit of the myth how everything was Cooper's fault.

The truth is Cooper is an easy target as many do not like him, so he seems to be overly blamed here (and not just here, Paul Cully wrote a frankly ridiculous hatchet job article on Cooper inferring it was all Cooper's fault for the loss in the SMH, and another blogger wrote one at another big Australia sports blogging website).

This is largely in contrast to To'omua, who just shovelled it on in Bled 1, or shovelled it on or run to the line in Bled 2 (a noticeable improvement, but still not good). The difference between Cooper and To'omua on attack was that Cooper took the ball to the line on occasion before passing, wrapped and provided other options, basically he took more options. To'omua is much more vanilla.

To be honest, I thought that Cooper wasn't too bad and mainly took good options on attack, with the obvious exception of his forced pass when chasing the game the led to a turnover and Bok try (which was, by the way, his only turnover/error for the night). Here's a fun stat: Cooper had the LEAST amount of turnovers in the backline, tying on 1 with Folau.

If you took everything Cooper did on balance, his game was average. Which, when considering what the rest of the team dished up, he was actually one the better performers. Which is quite miserable.

If (some) people (here) are expecting a magic improvement in attack with To'omua there, it won't happen. There will be some small improvement in the kicking game, but going by the Bledisloe games, it won't be big, either. You'll get some advantage in defence, that's about it.

If you want to change the game plan to be more defence and kicking orientated, then yes, To'omua is your man. If you want to keep trying a more ball in hand attacking game plan, then Cooper is your man.

Neither are miracle workers, but some comments here either way seem to think so. The obsession that Cooper was somehow quite awful when he quite obviously wasn't is amazing, whether it's by the same few posters on this forum, or Paul Cully in the media, or other blogging sites.

With all due respect Ash, Cooper was guilty of giving the Boks something like 2 penalty goal kicks to Morne Steyn, and a speculative pass over the shoulder, which resulted in the le Roux? / Kirchner try in the corner.

As the scoreline was ultimately 12-38, surely giving the Boks 13 point scoring opportunities is unforgivable, and it is right to bring Cooper under the microscope for scrutiny?

 

[Pfitzy]

And don't forget the two tackles he slipped off leading up to one of the penalties he gave away. Or the other missed tackle that Jim Tucker credited him with pushing a Bok out over the sideline (it was the loose forward who did all the work). I'm sure there were others.

What Cully's "frankly ridiculous hatchet job" was actually quite accurate, like a lot of his stuff. Cooper isn't solely to blame for the attack stuttering - Genia has to take a lot of the rap for that. But neither is Cooper delivering in other areas of his game, and while you have to applaud the fact he's defending in the line, its a phyrric victory for his supporters if he's not actually defending.

 

[Pfitzy]

Agree Nick. The other thing is the Wallabies under Link have wanted to spread the ball side to side trying to exploit mismatches and holes in the defence, however as a Saders fan I know this is high risk stuff if you're aren't willing to hit rucks and clean players out as well.

If you're also willing to run 3 metres backwards, and 10 metres sideways, to come in through the gate. Doesn't matter how fit you are (and our blokes aren't), that shit gets old REAL quick for a forward.

 

[I like to watch]

Scott Allen's video is interesting, for anyone who has watched it. Removes a bit of the myth how everything was Cooper's fault.

The truth is Cooper is an easy target as many do not like him, so he seems to be overly blamed here (and not just here, Paul Cully wrote a frankly ridiculous hatchet job article on Cooper inferring it was all Cooper's fault for the loss in the SMH, and another blogger wrote one at another big Australia sports blogging website).

This is largely in contrast to To'omua, who just shovelled it on in Bled 1, or shovelled it on or run to the line in Bled 2 (a noticeable improvement, but still not good). The difference between Cooper and To'omua on attack was that Cooper took the ball to the line on occasion before passing, wrapped and provided other options, basically he took more options. To'omua is much more vanilla.

To be honest, I thought that Cooper wasn't too bad and mainly took good options on attack, with the obvious exception of his forced pass when chasing the game the led to a turnover and Bok try (which was, by the way, his only turnover/error for the night). Here's a fun stat: Cooper had the LEAST amount of turnovers in the backline, tying on 1 with Folau.

If you took everything Cooper did on balance, his game was average. Which, when considering what the rest of the team dished up, he was actually one the better performers. Which is quite miserable.

If (some) people (here) are expecting a magic improvement in attack with To'omua there, it won't happen. There will be some small improvement in the kicking game, but going by the Bledisloe games, it won't be big, either. You'll get some advantage in defence, that's about it.

If you want to change the game plan to be more defence and kicking orientated, then yes, To'omua is your man. If you want to keep trying a more ball in hand attacking game plan, then Cooper is your man.

Neither are miracle workers, but some comments here either way seem to think so. The obsession that Cooper was somehow quite awful when he quite obviously wasn't is amazing, whether it's by the same few posters on this forum, or Paul Cully in the media, or other blogging sites.

He had an average game for him.
I thought he tackled pretty well.
But in the end,he was specifically responsible for 13 points for the other team,which is about par for him.
The obsession with ignoring his faults,and overstating his value adds is also somehow quite awful.

 

[Ash]

With all due respect Ash, Cooper was guilty of giving the Boks something like 2 penalty goal kicks to Morne Steyn, and a speculative pass over the shoulder, which resulted in the le Roux? / Kirchner try in the corner.

As the scoreline was ultimately 12-38, surely giving the Boks 13 point scoring opportunities is unforgivable, and it is right to bring Cooper under the microscope for scrutiny?

I did mention his attack options were good mostly, the forced pass being the one glaring exception. I did say in balance he was merely average.

Of course he deserves scrutiny, but do you think it's balanced in comparison to other player's performances?

The speculative pass was desperately trying to conjure something well after we had lost the game with his desperately trying to create something. That one turnover Cooper had led to a try. We also had other turnovers that led to tries. What about the focus on those players?

So why the focus on Cooper then?

Lilo, for example, took more wrong options in attack than Cooper, and had two turnovers, one of which he was very fortunate that Habana didn't run the length of the field and score from. If Cooper had done the same, you would have many here harping on the same thing. In fact, some posts here and another rugby blog have said that Cooper repeatedly dropped balls in contact and repeatedly threw passes to no-one.

Or Cummins, 3 turnovers, and a lower completed tackle rate than Cooper?

Pfitzy I find it unsurprising you agree with Cully, but really, the examples Cully uses to highlight Cooper's "issues" in that games happened after the game was effectively well over, and one was a kick that actually wasn't that bad. Cooper's only bad miss that I can directly recall on was Vermuelen midfield. The diving effort to save the try wsan't great, but it also wasn't unexaplainable as the guy was already tackled and moving in a now unpredictable motion. Of course, you ignored Scott Allen's video where Cooper multiple times took the right option in attack because it doesn't suit your agenda, instead you still believe he is mainly to blame with Genia for our stuttering attack. Personally, I tend to believe the problems in our attack existed more inside Cooper and outside Cooper. You can't fault Cooper if the guys outside of him die with the ball in potential overlap situations over and over again.

Pfitzy I am amazed that you focus on Cooper being dropped so much, then pick Kepu, who was horrid, and Douglas, who was poor and has been poor since the Lions games, and Timani, who was horrid on the weekend, in your preferred team. Why, just why?

My whole point is that Cooper is divisive, so he cops more than warranted attention, to the point where he gets blamed for our poor attack when he actually wasn't at fault.

With that, I give up.

 

[vidiot]

I've held off on posting because the point is NOT Cooper. It's just a recurrent theme that the usual suspects like to jump on. And I don't care, for the most part, To'omua played well enough and has enough strengths that picking him pleases me.

But I thought Cooper was actually solid-ish, first start back, and that Dwyer and Cully were finding more blame than existed for his role in the rogering.

The turnover happened (unless I have the wrong moment), when he went to pass inside to Fardy who was absolutely smashed (without the ball) and Cooper tried to pull the ball back. They were chasing the game then. It happens.

He made some tackles and was a speed bump at times in the second half - sure. Tough backrow to tackle though. He wasn't alone there. To'omua would have given it a good go though.

They played with width and made ground and breaks, usually off of his passing. Despite the diatribe about his crabbing I don't think he took space away from Lilo et al. He passed inside. He passed outside. He used overlaps. He took the ball to the line, got across it and recycled on the ground.

When they did go wide, and start to get across the advantage line, things invariably went wrong at the next breakdown, in handling, or in AACs penchant to straighten back inside and get tied up with the ball when there were chances out wider. But they actually started to make things happen and then fucked it up wider than Cooper. This must be slightly annoying for Link, who probably thought that the cream of Australian rugby could catch the ball, use an overlap and recycle possession.

That crap penalty in the first few minutes when he tackled and loitered back through the ruck was tremendously frustrating, and Cooper of all people should be given a kick in the arse about testing the ref's limits. Not his forte. Nose clean and focus. It was in the opposition half though.

And his kicking was pretty ordinary, but I'll pay the chip for Folau.

Now Genia - he is all over the shop. Doing too much and not doing the basics well. Give him the bench. Moore needs a rest, which sucks with no TPN around.

And drop Cooper, by all means. But the focus on him misses a range of problems that were more immediately related to the result.

 

[PaarlBok]

I did enjoy Etsebeth sweepslag tackle on Cooper. Dont see this often anymore.

 

[Ash]

One final note: passing early vs the Boks rush umbrella defence was the right plan for the Wallabies to take in this game, at least early on it was.

The issue is that it then requires the guy at 13 to be the decision maker, to be able to setup the men around him. With a Conrad Smith, you are fine, but unfortunately AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is not normally your guy as he just doesn't have the vision or ball skills.

edit: To clarify, I actually have no issue with Link selecting To'omua or Cooper next game. It's horses for courses, they are different players and currently offer very different things. Neither has stood up and said select me in their chances in the RC so far, either. Cooper was better than To'omua was in Bled 1, but To'omua showed definite improvement and was better than Cooper in some ways in Bled 2 and Cooper better than To'omua in some ways vs SA.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

In the good old days you could put yourous on Campo gifting the bad guys about 8 points,but you could also bank on him attracting 10000 punters to the game, and helping with vreating more than8 points for the Men in Gold.

Say what you like about him,but he was good for "brand Rugby" in so many ways, still is.

Quade -Don't know, but you feel at the moment that the negatives outweigh the positives.

Are we expecting too much of him?

 

[PaarlBok]

In the good old days you could put yourous on Campo gifting the bad guys about 8 points,but you could also bank on him attracting 10000 punters to the game, and helping with vreating more than8 points for the Men in Gold.

Say what you like about him,but he was good for "brand Rugby" in so many ways, still is.

Campo is now ours. Myself really enjoy his comments before and after rugby matches. To have him, Nick Mallet, Naas Botha and John Mitchell is only a joy to listen to.

 

[Athilnaur]

The trouble for Quade is that he simply isn't even close to his 2011 form. Yes he plays a more conservative game, but he has lost his electric unpredictability. And on the conservative qualities To'omua largely outshines him. I want him to do well but to my eyes he simply isn't.

Genia isn't suited to captaincy, it brings out his negativity. He has also been worked out, he needs to refresh his approach I feel. For me White is a far better proposition right now.

I agree the forwards cop some of this but I have been watching them both all year and my ciew is To'omua and White are in considerably better form.

Earlier someone asked if Carter and Conrad Smith would have made a difference. My answer is simple, they would have been an immense improvement. Sorry AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) but we need more.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Campo is now ours. Myself really enjoy his comments before and after rugby matches. To have him, Nick Mallet, Naas Botha and John Mitchell is only a joy to listen to.

We'll try to contain our grief, PB.
.

 

[Beefcake]

Kinda in line with this and what Michael Lynagh was saying..

In all irony, this principle was something MJ should have practiced, not just preached, given the fall from grace of his marriage...

 

[Athilnaur]

Must say I'd be keen to hear Mallett and Mitchell's views but neither of them are known for saying much. Presumably Campo fills the fluff, er, filler role.