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Australia v New Zealand - Sydney 16 Aug

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Poor comment Breaveheart

Huh? It was a joke. Mostly related to Brumby Jack and twitter.

Spot on Pfitzy, Pocock for all his strengths would make a fucking horrid 8, or 6 for that matter. He's not a jumper and lacks the wingspan to be as good as others are at pulling the ball out the back of the scrum.

McCalman on the pine and forced to play at 7, you can play more ball in hand and attempt to counter ruck more so than pilfer. Pocock on the pine and forced to play at 8 you risk your line out, scrum and ability to get over the gain line.

Sometimes the better player isn't necessarily best for the team.

I'd be more confident with Hooper who is more so in the George Smith mould adapting if either of them were too. Hooper offers more facets to his game to adapt to differing tactics.

Agreed. If you had Pocock on the bench, it would be Hooper covering the other backrow positions rather than Pocock.

I don't see that really working unless you play 6 forward reserves.

If there's any player in your backrow that you're planning on replacing as part of your game plan it's probably going to be the 8.
 

A mutterer

Chilla Wilson (44)
hoops has been miles ahead of his opposition most of this year, how is it you AB supporters don't rate him?
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Yeah I don't get it either. In Pocock's most recent Bledisloe Cup encounters he was somewhat ineffective. This was mostly due to the officiating, but still, showed what his weakness can be in that if officials crack down on the breakdown heavily he is far less effective as he can't offer a point of difference in other game styles.

In beaten teams last year which gave some of our worst performances against the All Blacks in recent history, Hooper showed up Richie, making metres and pilfers yet is the one not to be feared? People say he is too busy ball running to get pilfers and focuses too much on that, yet he doubled his nearest competitor for test pilfers in 2013. If anything Hooper has shown he is a player that should be feared, as he can be effective in almost all conditions.

One thing I've noticed is that Hooper is really developing that rub of the green with officials also. In the Semi Final I saw him absolutely smash Mogg in a great lifting tackle. What happened next was that instead of getting to his feet and advancing over the ruck he actually crawled over the top of Moggy to seal the ball off, Waratahs piled in behind and then the Waratahs got the penalty. Being able to get away with play like that has got to benefit the Wallabies!
 

Marcelo

Ken Catchpole (46)
Stirling Mortlock doesn't believe in Wallabies :(

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u..._53e97ccfb4-886bf0ee4b-63589685#ixzz3A3TXEoSr

While acknowledging that the Wallabies will bring a much more confident and physical team into the Rugby Championships, former Test captain Stirling Mortlock has lamented the fact that these improvements will not be enough to beat the All-Blacks.

"Even when you have that physicality and that presence, when you rip in at the breakdown and do have momentum for large periods of time of the game, they usually find a way to still be in the game, if not leading," he said. Mortlock – who was in the Wallabies’ last Bledisloe Cup-winning team in 2002, did say it was the first time he gave the team a good chance since 2011.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
The bloke was a champion - no question

BUT jeez I get the shits with old players 1/2 bagging our blokes.

Fuck get on board and keep your negative comments to yourself.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Mortlock's quote is taken completely out of context there.. The headline is extremely misleading. Shit journalism.
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
I agree, he is merely saying you can't take anything for granted when you play the ABs as they are going to be in the game for the full 80 minutes..
 
M

Moono75

Guest
Media speculation in the led up to Bledisloe games each year is ridiculous. How many false dawns have been written about, how many times have we been promised Bledisloe Cup candy only to have the AB's smash us like a cheap Mexican piñata.


.....but this year.....this year it's different....the bell tolls AB's.....5 days.....a storm is coming :D
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
The turnover stats below are for conceded, unfortunately I am totally unable to find a publicly available database for historical test matches that has a turnovers won stat recorded.

Here are the raw stats from the last 3 games which Pocock, Hooper and McCaw played against New Zealand and Australia, respectively (all sourced from ESPN):

Pocock

October 16th, 2011 - Auckland:

Runs: 10
Meters: 22
Clean Breaks: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Tackles: 13/1
Turn Overs: 0
Penalized: 1

80 minutes Played

August 27th, 2011 - Brisbane:

Runs: 8
Meters: 10
CB: 0
DB: 0
Tackles: 16/0
TO: 0
Penalized: 1

80 Minutes Played

August 18th, 2012 - Sydney:

Runs: 6
Meters: 1
CB: 0
DB: 0
Tackles: 4/1
TO: 0
Penalized: 2

80 minutes Played

Hooper

August 17th, 2013 - Sydney:

Runs: 7
Meters: 19
CB: 0
DB: 0
Tackles: 5/1
TO: 1
Penalized: 0

80 Minutes Played

August 24th, 2013 - Wellington

Runs: 6
Meters: 18
CB: 0
DB: 1
Tackles: 7/0
TO: 2
Penalized: 4

80 Minutes Played

October 19th, 2013 - Dunedin

Runs: 5
Meters: 18
CB: 0
DB: 1
Tackles: 11/1
TO: 1
Penalized: 3

McCaw

August 17th, 2013 - Sydney

Runs: 14
Meters: 14
CB: 0
DB: 0
Tackles: 9/2
TO: 1
Penalized: 3

72 Minutes Played

August 24th, 2013 - Wellington

Runs: 6
Meters: 7
CB: 0
DB: 0
Tackles: 14/0
TO: 1
Penalized: 0

80 Minutes Played

October 20th, 2012 - Brisbane

Runs: 5
Meters: 22
CB: 0
DB: 0
Tackles: 14/2
TO: 1
Penalized: 2

80 Minutes Played

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before any of you get your panties in a twist - this isn't in any way meant to be scientific, just a casual look at the stats in lieu of a team announcement.

Honestly, comparing Hooper and Pocock directly is a bit of an exercise in futility for what it's worth to me. They're extremely different in the way they play and each has proven merits to their play-style.

I do think that Pocock can have a greater impact as an individual, though. Whether or not he can do the things he used to do is a huge question but he literally fucking broke other teams with his turnovers in the past.

I can't think of another player in world rugby right now that's still playing who has ever had the one-man influence at the ruck that Pocock has/did other than Richie and even then I'd back Pocock in a 1-on-1 at the ruck.

On the whole though I think Hooper contributes more to a team which is already playing relatively well. He offers far more options on attack with his speed, footwork and ability to "play heavy" in contact while still being a more than serviceable flanker from a defensive perspective (RJ, if you're reading this, piss off).

On one hand you've got a dynamo who is pretty much constantly offering himself around the field on both sides of the ball and all of the good things that stem from that + a good rugby brain + phenomenal genetics. We've all seen him do it enough times.

On the other hand you've got a player who isn't going to have much presence on attack but who is fucking impossible to move off the ball (Poey secured a TON of ruck ball for the Wallabies on attack), who can also pick and choose his moments to attack the opposition ruck in a way that is really, truly special in the scope of the history of Rugby Union. If you are a proponent of using your defense as a form of attack..you can't do any better.

Link is seemingly one of the most prominent "horses for courses" coaches running around these days so I wouldn't be surprised to see a bit of both of them if Pocock can get healthy and return to form.

TL;DR Hooper is probably the better choice for a team that is gelling well and functioning like it should, he can do things that will "snowball" your efforts if you're the dominant team. Pocock is one of the best defensive players and on-ballers ever and can largely turn games on his own with his defensive work but struggles (relatively) when his team has the ball
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The Mortlock article is another case of needing to sift between the actual quotes and the statements by the journo.

Mortlock really doesn't say anything negative about the Wallabies at all. In fact he's very positive. He just rightly points out that you can do all those things well and still not be beating the All Blacks because they're extemely good.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Yeah I don't get it either. In Pocock's most recent Bledisloe Cup encounters he was somewhat ineffective. This was mostly due to the officiating, but still, showed what his weakness can be in that if officials crack down on the breakdown heavily he is far less effective as he can't offer a point of difference in other game styles.

In beaten teams last year which gave some of our worst performances against the All Blacks in recent history, Hooper showed up Richie, making metres and pilfers yet is the one not to be feared? People say he is too busy ball running to get pilfers and focuses too much on that, yet he doubled his nearest competitor for test pilfers in 2013. If anything Hooper has shown he is a player that should be feared, as he can be effective in almost all conditions.

One thing I've noticed is that Hooper is really developing that rub of the green with officials also. In the Semi Final I saw him absolutely smash Mogg in a great lifting tackle. What happened next was that instead of getting to his feet and advancing over the ruck he actually crawled over the top of Moggy to seal the ball off, Waratahs piled in behind and then the Waratahs got the penalty. Being able to get away with play like that has got to benefit the Wallabies!


To be fair I can only recall Hooper having one good game against the AB's. And that was his last Test. You say he outplayed Richie - some would disagree with you there. He was good but certainly wasn't outstanding and had lots of flaws too.

Whilst Pococks last couple of games weren't up to his high standard I believe Pocock's best against the AB's was MUCH better then Hooper's best.

However Pocock hasn't played a game for nearly 3 years so I'm sick of talking about him. Also I agree Hooper has developed well, I see a lot more physicality and aggression in his game this year then a few years ago when he was dropped for the great G.Smith in the Lions series.

His game is built around mobility and strong ball runner and his pilfering techniques has got a lot better too (as you mentioned). So I think the best is yet to come for Hooper.

But looking at the FEW past performances against only the AB's and SA then Pocock has overall performed better.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
@USARugger - this year's tests will be an important guide on Hooper as well.

There's little doubt that he's a better player now than he was 12 months ago.

Agreed, his development since the last summer made me hesitant to even do the post at all.

His pilfering technique, decision making and contact skills have come on a long way since then.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Looking at that Hooper is far superior to both. That's a simplistic view though, because Hooper didn't play in the games Pocock played and vice versa, one could fairly argue that Hooper could have got zero turnovers in the games Pocock did or that Pocock could have achieved more in the games Hooper played.

What it highlights though is the impact officiating can have on a game that you are relying on Pocock to win turnovers in (That's why you pick him after all, to win turnovers). The 2011 RWC Quarter Final shows why you pick him for that.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
Looking at that Hooper is far superior to both. That's a simplistic view though, because Hooper didn't play in the games Pocock played and vice versa, one could fairly argue that Hooper could have got zero turnovers in the games Pocock did or that Pocock could have achieved more in the games Hooper played.

What it highlights though is the impact officiating can have on a game that you are relying on Pocock to win turnovers in (That's why you pick him after all, to win turnovers). The 2011 RWC Quarter Final shows why you pick him for that.

The biggest thing for me is that there's no "ball slowed" stat.

Pilfering is something that happens when you've gotten lucky while you're trying to slow the ball down
;)

Turnover figures in the above may not be accurate, amending right now - one moment please!
 
M

Moono75

Guest
Looking a those stats above, whilst not a huge difference in the run metres.....Hooper is more likley to bust one for 70 metres. Pocock doesn't have that in his game.....Ritchie with age less and less likely. Hooper to rise up against the AB's.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The biggest thing for me is that there's no "ball slowed" stat.

Pilfering is something that happens when you've gotten lucky while you're trying to slow the ball down
;)

Turnover figures in the above may not be accurate, amending right now - one moment please!

The turnover figure in those stats is the number of times you've lost the ball.

There doesn't really seem to be any regular stat provider that gives forced penalties and pilfers.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
The turnover figure in those stats is the number of times you've lost the ball.

There doesn't really seem to be any regular stat provider that gives forced penalties and pilfers.

Yeah that's the amending I was referring to, when I saw Pocock with 0 in the 2011 QF I knew something was seriously wrong.

Also struggling to find a provider with TW stats.

Naturally, Rugby Heaven has all the live match blogs archived but I can't find a way to even see if they still have the database containing the stats for the old test matches up or not.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
I know its just wishful thinking, but I expected Pocock to broaden his game considerably under Jake White's tutelage, particularly his effectiveness as a ball runner. Sadly, injuries intervened. Great talent, though.

Hooper is the incumbent, he will only get stronger and better as he gets a year or two older. Not to mention, more experienced in the dark arts of managing the referee.

Nice problem to have, if Pocock comes back as good as ever, hopefully better.
 
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