Aussie Player Exodus

[Quick Hands]

Quick Hands,


There is a simple and unpalatable truth. Young PI kids actually prefer to play loig.


I used to believe that the huge increase in migration from the Islands would automatically result in a huge increase in playing numbers and support for our code.

I'm not sure that's the case. An alternative view would be that in many places where immigrants of low-socio economic status live, there is no junior rugby option only a junior league option and thus they gravitate there.

 

[southsider]

im curious what areas you feel offer a junior league option that don't offer a junior union option?

I agree with Wamberal for the record, kids in general (including PI kids) just prefer league to union

 

[Bardon]

Those three nations need to be subsidised for the greater good. At the moment their young talent is just used by Tier 1 countries to prop up super sides, test sides and European club sides. Their national teams are made up of whoever is left.

One of the purposes of forming an association is that there is a degree of cross subsidy by the strong of the weak. Or have such altruistic thoughts been banished from rugby? None of the football codes in Australia would have expanded nationally without the idea that certain teams had to be subsidised to be viable.

Maybe being part of a professional rugby competition might bring economic advantages to each of the country's economies as well?

IMO it does rugby no credit the way PI players are poached without any investment back into those countries.

No wonder Samoa and Fiji are listening to what the NRL have to say.

Sadly there is no spirit within the game to give others a leg up in the modern era.

Down south the unions are focused on their own financial survival and have no apetite for long term planning. Instead they've taken to prospecting for a huge windfall of legend that's out there somewhere, somehow everyone else has missed it but it's there somewhere and once they find it they'll be rich beyond their wildest dreams and they'll have the power to crush League and anyone else who gets in their way.

Meanwhile up north the unions have just lost the first major battle in the war for control of the European game. The clubs don't yet call the shots but the power of the unions have been forever diminished. Consequently the unions up north are focused on the changing landscape of the game up here and there's no will to help anyone but themselves.

While all this is going on the IRB are concerned with the very important task of rebranding themselves and figuring out just who thought the new logo actually looks good.

As I've said many times before I think the best solution is that a small percentage of every 6 nations, TRC, ERC, Super Rugby, Top14, Pro12 and Premiership TV rights deal should go into a pot to fund the development of the game. The time to do it is now before the English and French clubs get any stronger.

That pot should then be used to support development in Tier 2 & 3 nations. There should be strict rules on governance, in order to qualify for aid, to prevent situations like Samoa where money disappears into a financial black hole.

It's not the laws of the game on the field that we should be most worried about it's the laws that govern how we behave off the field that need looking at. No Tier 1 union is going to voluntarily disadvantage itself to help others in the current climate. But if the IRB forces each of us to pay a little it's something that has a chance to work.

Do I believe the IRB is forward thinking or efficient enough to implement something like this? Hell no.

 

[Strewthcobber]

World Rugby distribute more than £50m each year in the cycle - money generated from the World Cup.

You may have noticed that the ARU may be insolvent in 2015 because of the massive revenue hit that happens every world cup year. NZ finances won't be too rosy either

So the World Cup is the redistribution system that the big Unions use to fund every one else

 

[Quick Hands]

im curious what areas you feel offer a junior league option that don't offer a junior union option?

I agree with Wamberal for the record, kids in general (including PI kids) just prefer league to union

Let's look at the greater Penrith area for one. There are 3 junior rugby clubs in the area - one in the Blue Mountains, one at Windsor (both quite small an isolated parts of that geographical area), the third club is Rooty Hill Raptors.

In the same area there are upwards of 12 junior league clubs.

The let's look at south-western Sydney - one junior rugby club at Cambelltown, but Wests JRL in the same geographic area runs multiple divisions in every age group.

Kids will play with their mates from primary school so unless dad is a rugby fanatic and involved in one of the few junior rugby clubs, they will play for the local club - which in most cases will be a junior league club. It's just not realistic to think that parents who aren't commited to either code are going to drive miles to a junior rugby club, when there are 2 or 3 junior league clubs close to home.

I didn't think that it was contested that there are many many more junior league clubs in most of Sydney than there are junior rugby clubs.

It's pointless to argue with your view about kids in general prefering league to union as it's a matter of opinion and unable to be supported by any qualatative data.

 

[southsider]

it's simple supply and demand, those western suburbs clubs you have mentioned struggle for numbers, what's the point of creating even more clubs if the ones already in existence aren't flourishing? Not to mention that the Parramatta area borders with the Penrith area and offers a few other clubs to choose from. I also believe Liverpool counts as south-western Sydney.

Your point about kids playing with primary school friends is fairly narrow minded too, I went to the local public school and played for the local rugby club, I was the only one from my school all the other kids came from all over the joint, some travelling a good 20 mins or so bypassing multiple other clubs both union and league to come to us there are many factors that make up a choice in code and club. And no its not contested that there are more league clubs than union ones, would you like to point out where I said that or even insinuated it?

well reading your posts I have a hunch that your not exactly a spring chicken and somewhat out of touch in certain aspects, while not having any data to support my claim I didn't leave school too long ago, went to private school and played club with a team comprising nearly completely of low-socio economic families and work on a day to day basis with school aged children in a sporting context so like to think I have a pretty well rounded and up to date view on what the general consensus on stuff like that would be.

Simple matter of it is rugby league is seen as the cooler and more attainable option. Theres the lure of junior contracts, getting to play for a nrl clubs junior teams through Harold Matts and sg ball and getting all the training gear etc (much cooler than representing a shute shield team) and the senior pathways are more attractive too, playing in the Holden cup where you get to be on foxsports playing before the NRL game in a stadium or playing 1st colts on a crappy suburban ground with 20 spectators.

Your other posts about a PI team are nothing but a ill thought out dream, just because something sounds good on paper does not mean it will work in practice, ask Russia how communism turned out for them.

 

[Westie]

im curious what areas you feel offer a junior league option that don't offer a junior union option?

I agree with Wamberal for the record, kids in general (including PI kids) just prefer league to union

Are you serious? Try the entire southwest sydney region.

 

[southsider]

Liverpool not in south west Sydney?

 

[Westie]

What about Liverpool? Do you imagine it to be some rugby stronghold?

 

[southsider]

no I imagine it to be a suburb in south west Sydney region that has a juniors club.....

 

[Quick Hands]

it's simple supply and demand, those western suburbs clubs you have mentioned struggle for numbers, what's the point of creating even more clubs if the ones already in existence aren't flourishing? Not to mention that the Parramatta area borders with the Penrith area and offers a few other clubs to choose from. I also believe Liverpool counts as south-western Sydney.

Your point about kids playing with primary school friends is fairly narrow minded too, I went to the local public school and played for the local rugby club, I was the only one from my school all the other kids came from all over the joint, some travelling a good 20 mins or so bypassing multiple other clubs both union and league to come to us there are many factors that make up a choice in code and club. And no its not contested that there are more league clubs than union ones, would you like to point out where I said that or even insinuated it?

well reading your posts I have a hunch that your not exactly a spring chicken and somewhat out of touch in certain aspects, while not having any data to support my claim I didn't leave school too long ago, went to private school and played club with a team comprising nearly completely of low-socio economic families and work on a day to day basis with school aged children in a sporting context so like to think I have a pretty well rounded and up to date view on what the general consensus on stuff like that would be.

Simple matter of it is rugby league is seen as the cooler and more attainable option. Theres the lure of junior contracts, getting to play for a nrl clubs junior teams through Harold Matts and sg ball and getting all the training gear etc (much cooler than representing a shute shield team) and the senior pathways are more attractive too, playing in the Holden cup where you get to be on foxsports playing before the NRL game in a stadium or playing 1st colts on a crappy suburban ground with 20 spectators.

Your other posts about a PI team are nothing but a ill thought out dream, just because something sounds good on paper does not mean it will work in practice, ask Russia how communism turned out for them.

I barely know where to begin.

Supply and demand are certainly big factors, but there are many more junior league clubs in existance in the west than there are junior rugby clubs. The uncommitted will simply go to the local club to play regardless of which code it is. The same is true about Parramatta, where there are 5 junior rugby clubs.

Your second paragraph makes my point - you (or most likely your parents) chose to go to the rugby club. The other players in your team had parents who specifically chose to travel to play rugby. Most people don't think like that. You may think that I am out of touch because I'm older than you, well having children keeps one in touch with these things and gives a far greater appreciation as to how these things happen. Our oldest played soccer in the younger years because all his mates from school started together in the 6s. He later played rugby for a few years, but he asked to play the sport that his mates played. Second son plays rugby because all his mates in primary school played junior rugby, there is no junior league club close to the school so league suffer the same issue that rugby faces in western Sydney. Guess what, all the boys at the school of Pacific Islander heritage play junior rugby. My daughter plays hockey - neither my wife or I ever had anything to do with the sport, but all her friends played hockey and one of the parents was the coach. This is how 6 year olds choose their sports - with the greatest respect they wouldn't know what the Holden Cup is let alone make a decision based on what they will be doing when they're 18. Unless parents intervene they go and play team sport with their mates from school.

I've been coaching junior rugby and other sporting teams for 25 years, so I think I'm pretty well-rounded on "stuff like that" as well. I even talk to parents on these things.

Once people who thought like you would have said that a professional rugby team in Perth or Melbourne, or a professional Aussie Rules team in Sydney sere "ill thought out dreams", but some people had some foresight and worked to make those things happen. If it's a choice being labelled a dreamer and being a negative knocker, I'll take being called a dreamer every time.

 

[Dave Beat]

I barely know where to begin.

Supply and demand are certainly big factors, but there are many more junior league clubs in existance in the west than there are junior rugby clubs. The uncommitted will simply go to the local club to play regardless of which code it is. The same is true about Parramatta, where there are 5 junior rugby clubs.

Your second paragraph makes my point - you (or most likely your parents) chose to go to the rugby club. The other players in your team had parents who specifically chose to travel to play rugby. Most people don't think like that. You may think that I am out of touch because I'm older than you, well having children keeps one in touch with these things and gives a far greater appreciation as to how these things happen. Our oldest played soccer in the younger years because all his mates from school started together in the 6s. He later played rugby for a few years, but he asked to play the sport that his mates played. Second son plays rugby because all his mates in primary school played junior rugby, there is no junior league club close to the school so league suffer the same issue that rugby faces in western Sydney. Guess what, all the boys at the school of Pacific Islander heritage play junior rugby. My daughter plays hockey - neither my wife or I ever had anything to do with the sport, but all her friends played hockey and one of the parents was the coach. This is how 6 year olds choose their sports - with the greatest respect they wouldn't know what the Holden Cup is let alone make a decision based on what they will be doing when they're 18. Unless parents intervene they go and play team sport with their mates from school.

I've been coaching junior rugby and other sporting teams for 25 years, so I think I'm pretty well-rounded on "stuff like that" as well. I even talk to parents on these things.

Once people who thought like you would have said that a professional rugby team in Perth or Melbourne, or a professional Aussie Rules team in Sydney sere "ill thought out dreams", but some people had some foresight and worked to make those things happen. If it's a choice being labelled a dreamer and being a negative knocker, I'll take being called a dreamer every time.

YEP.

& reasons why the ARU should be paying attention to the Decline in Junior Rugby thread. Get more U6 into it and with a bit of luck / hard work it will hopefully spread like a virus.
....... and back on topic ...........
Wish there was a way to stop very good Premier Rugby players heading off shore - it is these players that strengthen rugby in Australia and push talent and competition.
Play golf with a hacker your game drops.
Play golf with a pro and your game miraculously improves.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Once people who thought like you would have said that a professional rugby team in Perth or Melbourne, or a professional Aussie Rules team in Sydney sere "ill thought out dreams", but some people had some foresight and worked to make those things happen. If it's a choice being labelled a dreamer and being a negative knocker, I'll take being called a dreamer every time.

I wonder. Does the super rugby team in Melbourne costs the ARU so much money that they can't afford to setup and maintain junior clubs in sw Sydney....

 

[Dave Beat]

I wonder. Does the super rugby team in Melbourne costs the ARU so much money that they can't afford to setup and maintain junior clubs in sw Sydney..

Strewth that is a tuff question, maybe TWAS can answer that one in another thread

 

[Braveheart81]

I wonder what it would cost to create a club out of nothing?

The whole reason junior or subbies clubs can run on the smell of an oily rag is because the work is done by like minded volunteers whether they are parents, players or ex-players etc.

If you don't have that and you're trying to create a new club entirely inorganically, presumably you need to pay staff to run it.

The AFL has been successful expanding into new areas through their Auskick program. The big advantage they have with that is that it can be run by a few paid staff and they have the money to do that. A few years later you've then got the demand and the interest to start getting those parents volunteering to run a junior club for their kids.

Unfortunately the ARU is not really in a position financially to emulate this sort of method of expansion. Currently the ARU is hard pressed providing the small amount of funding to keep existing unions and the clubs that form them operational.

 

[I like to watch]

I wonder. Does the super rugby team in Melbourne costs the ARU so much money that they can't afford to setup and maintain junior clubs in sw Sydney..

It's a little off topic,but I would be looking at the increasing amounts the ARU spends on 7's before I looked at the Rebels, for trimming costs.

 

[Quick Hands]

Y
... and back on topic .....
Wish there was a way to stop very good Premier Rugby players heading off shore - it is these players that strengthen rugby in Australia and push talent and competition.

Unfortunately there's not a lot the ARU can do in the short term to stop the exodus. When a French club can afford to pay a Shute Shield player, who also played a few NRC games $140,000 a year it's just an impossible task. There's simply not enough money in the game in Australia, NZ or SAF to keep everyone here. In the medium to long term the plan needs to be to bring more money into rugby in this part of the world.

Without rehashing everything that's been said over the past few pages, one idea is to improve the standard of rugby for the 6 Pacific Nations Cup countries ( US, Canada, Japan, Tonga, Samoa and Fiji). Over time this might see teams from those countries involved in Super Rugby, which further down the track would see their international teams improve. Rugby is going quite well in the US and a professional league there might not be far off and Canada tends to follow the US. We know Japan already has plenty of money.

IMO SANZAR should be looking at forming a loose alliance with the PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) 6 for mutual benefit. Long term, SANZAR, Argentina and the PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) 6 could generate enough money to keep most players in their own country. But it's probably 15-20 years off if it happens at all.

Rugby would be much the better for such an eventuality - 10 countries involved in international and provincial rugby and all competitive. It's a dream, but nothing ever happened without people coming up with what at the time seemed like far-off dreams.

I'm always the optimist.

 

[swingpass]

I'm always the optimist.

some one has to be

 

[Dave Beat]

Unfortunately there's not a lot the ARU can do in the short term to stop the exodus. When a French club can afford to pay a Shute Shield player, who also played a few NRC games $140,000 a year it's just an impossible task. There's simply not enough money in the game in Australia, NZ or SAF to keep everyone here. In the medium to long term the plan needs to be to bring more money into rugby in this part of the world.

Without rehashing everything that's been said over the past few pages, one idea is to improve the standard of rugby for the 6 Pacific Nations Cup countries ( US, Canada, Japan, Tonga, Samoa and Fiji). Over time this might see teams from those countries involved in Super Rugby, which further down the track would see their international teams improve. Rugby is going quite well in the US and a professional league there might not be far off and Canada tends to follow the US. We know Japan already has plenty of money.

IMO SANZAR should be looking at forming a loose alliance with the PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) 6 for mutual benefit. Long term, SANZAR, Argentina and the PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) 6 could generate enough money to keep most players in their own country. But it's probably 15-20 years off if it happens at all.

Rugby would be much the better for such an eventuality - 10 countries involved in international and provincial rugby and all competitive. It's a dream, but nothing ever happened without people coming up with what at the time seemed like far-off dreams.

I'm always the optimist.

- as am I.


I know,
Increasing player numbers, increasing interest, increasing general involvement possibly also increases revenue - - - over time.
Things are often built from the bottom up.

 

[TOCC]

it's simple supply and demand, .

I don't believe junior sporting clubs is purely about supply and demand, that is a contributing factor but the marketing, resources, coaching ability and costs are the major factors..

I was a founding player and player representative at a new club in country Queensland, within 4 years we went from no senior teams to two senior team and a colts side.. Most of those players came from the existing population pool, it was just that a team hadn't been available for them to play previously..

I played a very small part in the running and establishment of the club, but a few key members spent hours upon hours campaigning sponsors, the council, establishing relationships with local schools etc. the work required to establish a club is incredible, finding a suitable training ground is hard enough..