Aussie Player Exodus

[Omar Comin']

SANZAR would never support such a competition, already Argentina are a financial burden because they don't generate the same gate takings as the other three, when Argentina play in Australia, New Zealand or South Africa their matches rate lower and crowds are smaller.. SANZAR nations appreciate the Rugby Championship because it is the top 3 teams in the world(and Argentina), the high level of standard keeps them as the best teams in the world.. They won't compromise this..

There are avenues for those countries you have mentioned to improve, but it's not through the rugby championship.. There is no reason the pacific nations cup can't morph into a successful commercial product of its own..

Then IMO they would be lacking in vision and far too concerned about current playing standards and their own world rankings. These are much bigger potential markets than the SANZAR markets. New markets that SANZAR can expand into and gain significantly from financially. It takes time to develop new rivalries, but this is certainly possible, and the potential gains are more significant than short term costs.

As it is, the crowds to Wallabies games against the Springboks and All Blacks are falling. If everything stays the same Australian rugby will be just defending a shrinking castle with no way out.

 

[Braveheart81]

There's always going to be a balance between expansion (and funding that expansion) and maintaining competitiveness and solvency in the short term.

These markets may be potentially massive but that isn't the case immediately and none of the SANZAR nations have the financial security to forego a large portion for their annual revenue on a year to year basis.

The combination between SANZAR expanding the Tri Nations into the Rugby Championship, moving to Super 18 and implementing the NRC are pretty massive for the ARU. That is an expansion in the top 3 tiers that are either very recent or yet to commence.

 

[Omar Comin']

I agree Braveheart. I just think that it's possible to come up with a format that would ensure short term financial stability while opening the door further for the likes of Japan, USA and Canada to become part of the Rugby Championship. I mean the All Blacks have already shown these markets are not just potential.

But sure, it is a risk. What the ARU and I guess SANZAR really need is a great big capital injection to do some of these things on more than the smell of an oily rag.

 

[TOCC]

SANZAR can tap into those international markets through the evolving Super Rugby model, this would be a much better vehicle to assist development and lift the standard of professionalism in those countries without compromising the standard of test matches played between the SANZAR nations.

All Blacks were defeated USA by 74 - 3 in the test match last year, losing by such margins on a regular basis does nothing to assist the countries development, they need to be competitive against lower ranked teams and then slowly climb the ladder that way.

 

[Quick Hands]

There's no reason that SANZAR couldn't form an alliance with the Japan, Canada, U.S., Fiji, Tonga and Samoa which would allow those 6 nations to play in their own competition - a second tier TRC if you like. It would require little if any financial committment, just some moral and logistical support. It might also pave the way for regular fixtures between SANZAR (plus Argentina) and the others.

It requires a little thinking outside the square and a little vision.

 

[Quick Hands]

S

All Blacks were defeated USA by 74 - 3 in the test match last year, losing by such margins on a regular basis does nothing to assist the countries development, they need to be competitive against lower ranked teams and then slowly climb the ladder that way.

True, but regular fixtures against Australia A, Junior All Blacks and South Africa A might assist development - for all parties.

 

[Omar Comin']

All Blacks were defeated USA by 74 - 3 in the test match last year, losing by such margins on a regular basis does nothing to assist the countries development, they need to be competitive against lower ranked teams and then slowly climb the ladder that way.

They also had a very short preparation, and the team only plays a few matches every year with their best players. The All Blacks played well and crushed them. But the All Blacks have beaten tier 1 teams with similar score lines before. And I don't think the scoreline would be the same if the US had the same sort of preparation that the Rugby Championship teams get every year.

Lets see how these teams go at the World Cup when they'll legitimately be at full strength and with a proper preparation. I bet they, Samoa and Japan will be competitive with Scotland and that Canada will be competitive with Italy, France and Ireland.

In any case, I think you could devise a format that meant they wouldn't play more than 1 game against a SANZAR side each year (until they were good enough to play more), while still being part of the championship. You just tier the pools, rugby league world cup style.

 

[TOCC]

There's no reason that SANZAR couldn't form an alliance with the Japan, Canada, U.S., Fiji, Tonga and Samoa which would allow those 6 nations to play in their own competition - a second tier TRC if you like. It would require little if any financial committment, just some moral and logistical support. It might also pave the way for regular fixtures between SANZAR (plus Argentina) and the others.

It requires a little thinking outside the square and a little vision.

Like the Pacific Nations Cup?

the IRB Pacific Nations Cup is an International round-robin competition comprising the test teams of Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, USA, Canada and Japan.

True, but regular fixtures against Australia A, Junior All Blacks and South Africa A might assist development - for all parties.

Yes i agree, there needs to be more of this.. I think thats where the Pacific Rugby Cup has filled in though, with the Pacific Nations playing the Australian and New Zealand Super Rugby teams... This model seems to fit a bit better into the global rugby calendar.

The three A teams from Fiji, Samoa and Tonga are taking on the Academy teams from eight Super Rugby teams in three separate series - an Australian series, a New Zealand series and a Pacific Island series where the three Pacific Island teams will play each other.

 

[TOCC]

They also had a very short preparation, and the team only plays a few matches every year with their best players. The All Blacks played well and crushed them. But the All Blacks have beaten tier 1 teams with similar score lines before. And I don't think the scoreline would be the same if the US had the same sort of preparation that the Rugby Championship teams get every year.

Lets see how these teams go at the World Cup when they'll legitimately be at full strength and with a proper preparation. I bet they, Samoa and Japan will be competitive with Scotland and that Canada will be competitive with Italy, France and Ireland.

Sure, lets see how they go in the RWC and then if they perform well we can revisit this topic.

 

[Quick Hands]

Yes, like the Pacific Nations Cup. All I'm suggesting is that SANZAR form an alliance with them for mutual benefit. Surely the more interaction between Aus, NZ, SAF, Arg and the others (Jap, Can, US, Ton, Fij & Sam) the better for rugby. What's good for those 6 nations is in the long run good for Australia.

I see only positives from the Pacific Nations Cup being a second tier TRC and allied in some way with SANZAR.

 

[Omar Comin']

The problem with the Pacific Nations Cup is that it's played in the June window over just 3 weeks. It means either you do a proper round robin, with teams playing games every 4 days (as happened in 2013), or you split it in two and have no proper result (2014). Either way it's not fully satisfactory.

I guess what would really help is if the global calendar was adapted. We've seen how challenging it is for Argentina to get player release for all test matches and how the value of their players has declined in Europe due to the RC. It would be the same problem with teams like the US, Canada and any of the Island nations - at least while Super Rugby remains a relatively closed shop to them. At the moment Japan is the only country that would be capable of stepping in easily from that perspective.

 

[Quick Hands]

The problem with the Pacific Nations Cup is that it's played in the June window over just 3 weeks. It means either you do a proper round robin, with teams playing games every 4 days (as happened in 2013), or you split it in two and have no proper result (2014). Either way it's not fully satisfactory.

I guess what would really help is if the global calendar was adapted. We've seen how challenging it is for Argentina to get player release for all test matches and how the value of their players has declined in Europe due to the RC. It would be the same problem with teams like the US, Canada and any of the Island nations - at least while Super Rugby remains a relatively closed shop to them. At the moment Japan is the only country that would be capable of stepping in easily from that perspective.

I appreciate the difficulties that those 6 nations face and as you say the way they had to run things in 2013 and 2014 were both unsatisfactory. Maybe an alliance with SANZAR would give them more clout to get a proper window for their tournament?

An adjustment to the global calendar is needed for a variety of reasons.

 

[Bullrush]

I believe the best way forward is for the ARU to try and negotiate with the NZ counterparts to jointly announce that both countries will select overseas players. They will have the same issues as us, although they obviously enjoy much greater depth. This leaves our respective super teams on an equal basis, and equal to the SA teams, who have already given leave to players wanting to play overseas.

And anyone disagreeing because they argue that it will lead to a dilution of super rugby should be summarially ignored. I've never watch a single super team play at full strength, even the first game of the season, and I don't know anyone who has. And I've never enjoyed any game less so because of it, and I don't know anyone who has. Australian super teams are going to be playing mostly developmental players anyway, with most of the rest going to France, as long as they're competitive with the kiwi teams I'll be joyous supporting them.

Please keep NZ out of this ridiculousness.

We do not need to pick players from overseas and hopefully that will continue to be the case as the allure and desire to play for the black jersey is stronger than chasing the money.

Once we open up selection to overseas players, out domestic competitions will struggle. Yes, it WILL dillute our Super rugby and anyone who disagrees should be summarily ignored

 

[Omar Comin']

An adjustment to the global calendar is needed for a variety of reasons.

It's unlikely to happen but I think it would be so much easier if the 6 Nations and Rugby Championships (and any other similar competitions) were played at the same time and that top level club/franchise/provincial rugby around the world wasn't played at all in that window.

But it won't matter long term if Super Rugby does become a truly global competition. Then all the emerging non-European nations, and their players, would be part of our calendar.

 

[Braveheart81]

What time of year do you propose for that to happen?

I don't see how it is possible unless someone decides the rugby will become a Summer sport which I think is never going to happen.

Kicking off the Southern Hemisphere season with the Rugby Championship would devalue the quality and financial viability of the competition massively in my opinion.

 

[TOCC]

Global rugby calendar with aligned seasons will never happen, too much self interest and other issues regarding broadcast rights, weather, stadium availability etc.


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[qwerty51]

I wouldn't say never.. but certainly not in the next 10 years seeing as rights deals already been done. It needs to be seen as a long term outcome. The NH would have to play in their summer obviously since our summer is much harsher. I wouldn't say they're totally opposed to it from purely a weather aspect either, they're always complaining about how many shit games they get due to torrential rain.

 

[Wilson]

Interestingly the guardian is reporting a growing appetite for the global calendar in the north:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jan/05/six-nations-schedule-concussion-global-season

It's interesting that concussion management is seen as a motivator, it may be the missing piece of the puzzle in terms of getting some sort of agreement between north and south. The negative effects of the world cup on the English club season probably won't hurt either.

 

[Quick Hands]

I note this sentence from the article that Wilson posted:

World Rugby has made looking at the global calendar a priority and meetings have been held at chief executive level as well as with player associations.

Make of that what you will.

 

[Quick Hands]

It's unlikely to happen but I think it would be so much easier if the 6 Nations and Rugby Championships (and any other similar competitions) were played at the same time and that top level club/franchise/provincial rugby around the world wasn't played at all in that window.

But it won't matter long term if Super Rugby does become a truly global competition. Then all the emerging non-European nations, and their players, would be part of our calendar.

Perhaps, but a 10 nation bloc made up of Aust, NZ, SAF, ARg, USA, Can, Jap, Sam, Ton & Fij would have a much better chance of influencing decisions.