Aussie Player Exodus

[Quick Hands]

I think it's possible to have a global calendar without people having to play in summer. The purpose of a global calendar is mainly to reserve time for tests and elite professional leagues.

We're supposed to have some really bright people running rugby. It shouldn't be that hard.

It is early days but what I think is instructive is that nobody is setting anything in stone, not even when the Six Nations is played. Now that the unions have agreed to take this forward the clubs will become involved: we are better together and while the aim of everyone will be financially viable, it will not be at the expense of player welfare.”

 

[Braveheart81]

The two areas the need to line up are the Six Nations (running from early February to late March) and the Rugby Championship (from mid August to early October in a non RWC year).

The North and the South play each other in June in the Southern Hemisphere and November in the Northern Hemisphere.

The South have their off season in November/December and the North have theirs in June/July. If you're a test player you don't get November (for Southern Hemisphere) or June (for Northern Hemisphere) off with everyone else.

So you could either make the Rugby Championship take place before Super Rugby to align with the Six Nations or make the 6 Nations take place before the Northern Hemisphere season to align with the Rugby Championship.

As those two events are the biggest test series of the year I can't see either the North or South deciding they're willing to play them at the very start of the season.

 

[Quick Hands]

Move the southern test window to September and the northern test window to October. This leaves June/June free for NH players and November/December free for SH players. 6N and RC stay where they are.

EDIT: This extended Sept/Oct test window also gives the Pacific Nations Cup teams the chance to play a full 5 round home and away tournament.

Win-win-win

 

[Braveheart81]

Move the southern test window to September and the northern test window to October. This leaves June/June free for NH players and November/December free for SH players. 6N and RC stay where they are.

EDIT: This extended Sept/Oct test window also gives the Pacific Nations Cup teams the chance to play a full 5 round home and away tournament.

Win-win-win

Doesn't that make the Rugby Championship and the Southern Hemisphere test window at the same time?

Or do you play every Wallaby test in a row by going from Super Rugby to the inbound tour to the Rugby Championship to the End of Year Tour?

That's a brutal schedule!

 

[Quick Hands]

Doesn't that make the Rugby Championship and the Southern Hemisphere test window at the same time?

Or do you play every Wallaby test in a row by going from Super Rugby to the inbound tour to the Rugby Championship to the End of Year Tour?

That's a brutal schedule!

Hang on, at the moment the they play June test window, super finals, TRC then straight to EOYT. This suggestion would involve super finals, TRC, inbound tour then EOYT. It's exactly the same number of games, just in a different order. No more tests, in fact less weeks of training as the season is slightly shorter to accomodate two months of rest.

All SH test players then have all of November and December to rest and recover. You'll find that all the studies show that it's the continuous time off/rest which is the most important for recovering athletes.

Super rugby would take up the time currently taken by the June tests and TRC takes the time of super finals and the inbound tours take the time currently used by TRC.

EDIT: All NH test players would obviously have June/July as their rest period.

This satisfies the prerequisites you laid down in post 1142

I'd have also thought that eliminating the June suspension of the super season would be better for all concerned as well.

 

[Wilson]

On the face of it I like it, though I'm not sure how it fits in with the northern club seasons.

Whatever global season model is taken I hope we see some version of mid week matches return. I'm amazed that the bigger clubs haven't made more effort to book them in, with all the talk of a super rugby vs heineken cup champions match you'd think toulon would have tried to book the Wallabies/All Blacks/Springboks by now.

 

[Omar Comin']

Quick Hands, the resistance I can see would be from the Northern Hemisphere clubs, as you'd be playing more internationals during their season rather than after it as is the case now with the June tours.

I think the most sensible idea would be for the Europeans to align their season with SANZAR's and play from February to November. The quality of rugby in Europe in December/January is pretty bad a lot of the time due to the weather. You could avoid playing in July in Europe by having the tours to the South in that month, and the rest of international rugby (including both 6 Nations and Rugby Championship) could be played in October and November along with lower level club and provincial tournaments.

The only other thing I can think of is that maybe you could have a big international window from mid April to the end of June (including 6 Nations/RC plus European teams on tour). European club competitions would have to finish earlier - which they could because the 6 Nations is no longer at the beginning of the year. And Super Rugby would have to be split into 2 parts, separated by 2.5 months. This would also mean a change in the calendar for the ITM Cup/NRC/Currie Cup. But I don't think Super Rugby being split by 2.5 months is a very satisfactory outcome. Maybe you could have 2 separate competitions instead. Either way it's complicated.

This is why Super Rugby has to become a massively successful global competition. Then we won't have to worry about aligning our season in any way with European club rugby.

 

[the plastic paddy]

You can't have the NH rugby season over the summer, you would have no audience.

All this agitation to align the seasons etc, including Saracens disgracefully cynical concussion 'research', is nothing other than an attempt by the NH clubs, who have been left in charge of the NH club game, to take more money for themselves at the expense of the unions.

The six nations is perfect where it is, thank you very much. Moving it would be a disaster and make the square route of fuck all difference to the workload of the players and their susceptibility to concussion.

The balance of rugby is correct right now with the international game holding a clear priority for administrators, players and supporters. We do not want to end up going down the soccer route where the international game is seen as some sort of antiquated distraction.

 

[Omar Comin']

You can't have the NH rugby season over the summer, you would have no audience.

Don't buy this at all. Rugby League moved to a summer season in the UK and it's worked out fine. Plus, you could have the European teams tour in July, so you'd skip the middle month of summer. Top 14 teams already play in August. The quality of the rugby in Europe in June and August would be a lot better than the quality of rugby in December and January.

The six nations is perfect where it is, thank you very much. Moving it would be a disaster

There is no evidence to support this. I bet it would be just as popular at other times of the year. Perhaps even more as the weather would be better and the quality of the rugby consistently better.

 

[the plastic paddy]

Don't buy this at all. Rugby League moved to a summer season in the UK and it's worked out fine. Plus, you could have the European teams tour in July, so you'd skip the middle month of summer. Top 14 teams already play in August. The quality of the rugby in Europe in June and August would be a lot better than the quality of rugby in December and January.



There is no evidence to support this. I bet it would be just as popular at other times of the year. Perhaps even more as the weather would be better and the quality of the rugby consistently better.

Rugby league attendance has fallen through the floor since it moved to the summer.

The six nations in February and March has no major competition from other sports, move it and it will be competing with the culmination of the football league, formula 1 and, God forbid, cricket.

Rugby is a winter game, it is not basketball. Closing down the rugby season in December and January in the NH would be an absolute disaster for the game.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

So, the solution to Australian rugby player retention is to get the northern hemisphere rugby nations to move their season.
FFS.
Actually, the super league precedent would involve Australia playing in summer: it our problem.

 

[Quick Hands]

Q

I think the most sensible idea would be for the Europeans to align their season with SANZAR's and play from February to November.

This isn't going to happen and I don't think it should either. Rugby is a winter sport and the current winter club competitions have great TV coverage, good crowds and are profitable. Why would they vacate the field in winter to play in summer? In England the rugby crowd support cricket, rowing, tennis, horse racing and other traditional English summer sports. In France you're up against tennis, water sports and the tour de France and the fact that in summer France goes into holiday mode - especially in the south where rugby is played and the summer climate is similar to Sydney.

One thing I've learnt about trying to make change (which is usually quite difficult in itself), is that you give as few people as possible a reason to say "no". Your suggestion gives almost everyone with a vested interest a good reason to say "no".

Watching winter sports gives people in cold climates something to do in winter. They actually enjoy a cold, wet day at the rugby and they don't particularly mind the style of rugby being played.

 

[Quick Hands]

On the face of it I like it, though I'm not sure how it fits in with the northern club seasons.

Whatever global season model is taken I hope we see some version of mid week matches return. I'm amazed that the bigger clubs haven't made more effort to book them in, with all the talk of a super rugby vs heineken cup champions match you'd think toulon would have tried to book the Wallabies/All Blacks/Springboks by now.

The clubs would lose their players for 3 weeks in September, but their players wouldn't have to tour in June and would have a full 2 month rest break and be fitter and more refreshed for their season. Moving the November window to October is nothing more than playing the same number of weeks in October instead of November.

6N stays exactly where it is and TRC moves from Aug/Sept to Jul?Aug.

It's quite a minimal change actually and gives the NH players June/July as rest and SH player November/December.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Abstract for Mr. Tabua: Three reasons for shifting the NH schedule warmer months; the success of Super League in summer; and what rugby would be competing against on TV in warmer months.

You can't have the NH rugby season over the summer, you would have no audience.

Got evidence for that?

Some counter-reasons:

One thing people bitch about in the NH is how the rugby flows at the beginning and end of the season, but slogs in those wet, heavy middle months. You're hearing more current and past players talk about how they think they could put out a better product over warmer months, and a better product would naturally attract more audience share. (Brian Moore and James Haskell had an interesting discussion about that on Full Contact a few weeks back.)

Plus the SH winter is a lot different from the NH winter -- short of a few days in the southern island of New Zealand, you don't see SH winter games with snow and sleet like you do in the north. So it's already like the SH is playing during the equivalent of the NH autumn, while the NH consistently plays in the worst conditions imaginable. Those NH conditions create more chances for poor games and injury, while the SH conditions means Super Rugby can produce more of what people say they want in the NH -- flowing, running rugby. Besides, Super Rugby starts about 4 months out from the comparably milder SH winter, while the NH domestic competitions start about a month before the weather turns to sludge. If you want to see some parity in how the game is played, the conditions the game is played in should be more similar, but the SH won't be able to re-create those same shitty NH conditions. And who really wants that?

Also, a number of players have discussed how having a unified NH/SH schedule would help spare them some wear and tear. Wasn't there a player's union appeal for that a while back? If anyone remembers that, please post a link.

So those are just some reasons why warmer-weather rugby could do well in the NH -- not evidence, just reasons, but certainly more than an assertion.

As for league's dwindling audiences in the NH, which came first, the loss of audience or the move to a summer schedule? Were they already losing audience share and moved to summer so they wouldn't have to compete against union and football? If so, then that suggests the code was already losing audience share before the move, not that the move caused the loss in audience share. Plus they're also competing against the NRL now for attention, and few people would argue that Super League is more competitive than the NRL -- so in that race the NRL is going to get more attention than Super League (and they do).

As for what rugby would be competing against in warmer months, there's almost no audience for cricket right now as it is -- certainly not in the stands, not sure about television. I don't think rugby would have much to fear from them. If you're talking test matches, the rugby could be a nice respite between sessions. And rugby's already competing against football. Its big competition would be Super League and the general rugby fan's attention would be split between NH competition and Super Rugby.

It's a known unknown, but I think there's more at stake than just a couple of NH clubs making more money.

 

[the plastic paddy]

The clubs would lose their players for 3 weeks in September, but their players wouldn't have to tour in June and would have a full 2 month rest break and be fitter and more refreshed for their season. Moving the November window to October is nothing more than playing the same number of weeks in October instead of November.

6N stays exactly where it is and TRC moves from Aug/Sept to Jul?Aug.

It's quite a minimal change actually and gives the NH players June/July as rest and SH player November/December.

Would you mind if I posted your idea over on Munsterfans.com quick hands?

 

[Omar Comin']

This isn't going to happen and I don't think it should either. Rugby is a winter sport and the current winter club competitions have great TV coverage, good crowds and are profitable. Why would they vacate the field in winter to play in summer? In England the rugby crowd support cricket, rowing, tennis, horse racing and other traditional English summer sports. In France you're up against tennis, water sports and the tour de France and the fact that in summer France goes into holiday mode - especially in the south where rugby is played and the summer climate is similar to Sydney.

Watching winter sports gives people in cold climates something to do in winter. They actually enjoy a cold, wet day at the rugby and they don't particularly mind the style of rugby being played.

It's not an actual summer season though is it. The season would be played in Spring, Summer and Autumn, rather than Autumn, Winter and Spring. By avoiding most of winter you avoid competing with football for a couple of month, and if you've ever lived in Europe you'd know football dwarves any of the summer sports you mentioned 50 times over.

And by having the tours to the southern hemisphere in July, you'd miss out on the peak of summer - and much of the 'holiday mode' period.

I'd bet that the crowds in most places would not be lower in June or August than they are in December or January. Good weather encourages attendance, that is a fact.

The people most against this are always the Irish, and that's fair enough because in Ireland the GAA sports are very dominant in summer. Elsewhere the summer sports are blips on the radar compared to football.

Your statement at the end "and they don't particularly mind the style of rugby being played" is not really true in my experience living here. Maybe it's true of the absolute rusted on tragic British or Irish rugby fan, but most people prefer a game to be entertaining. And I'd say people are more fed up with scrum collapses and cynical tactics here in the UK than they are in Australia (which makes sense cause they see so much more of it).

The quality of a lot of the Pro 12 and Aviva Premiership rugby at this time of year is pretty terrible. Rugby is a better game when played in decent weather on a firm pitch. Saying it's "a winter sport" is just holding onto tradition for the sake of it. For participation that's fine, but at the professional level it's not a sport that suits being played at 5 degrees on a muddy field.

 

[Omar Comin']

So, the solution to Australian rugby player retention is to get the northern hemisphere rugby nations to move their season.
FFS.
Actually, the super league precedent would involve Australia playing in summer: it our problem.

No, it's got nothing to do with the retention of Australian players. Sorry the discussion moved on.

I think the greatest benefit of aligning the seasons would be growth of the game globally. Especially at test level.

 

[the plastic paddy]

Got evidence for that?

Some counter-reasons:

One thing people bitch about in the NH is how the rugby flows at the beginning and end of the season, but slogs in those wet, heavy middle months. You're hearing more current and past players talk about how they think they could put out a better product over warmer months, and a better product would naturally attract more audience share. (Brian Moore and James Haskell had an interesting discussion about that on Full Contact a few weeks back.)

Plus the SH winter is a lot different from the NH winter -- short of a few days in the southern island of New Zealand, you don't see SH winter games with snow and sleet like you do in the north. So it's already like the SH is playing during the equivalent of the NH autumn, while the NH consistently plays in the worst conditions imaginable. Those NH conditions create more chances for poor games and injury, while the SH conditions means Super Rugby can produce more of what people say they want in the NH -- flowing, running rugby. Besides, Super Rugby starts about 4 months out from the comparably milder SH winter, while the NH domestic competitions start about a month before the weather turns to sludge. If you want to see some parity in how the game is played, the conditions the game is played in should be more similar, but the SH won't be able to re-create those same shitty NH conditions. And who really wants that?

Also, a number of players have discussed how having a unified NH/SH schedule would help spare them some wear and tear. Wasn't there a player's union appeal for that a while back? If anyone remembers that, please post a link.

So those are just some reasons why warmer-weather rugby could do well in the NH -- not evidence, just reasons, but certainly more than an assertion.

As for league's dwindling audiences in the NH, which came first, the loss of audience or the move to a summer schedule? Were they already losing audience share and moved to summer so they wouldn't have to compete against union and football? If so, then that suggests the code was already losing audience share before the move, not that the move caused the loss in audience share. Plus they're also competing against the NRL now for attention, and few people would argue that Super League is more competitive than the NRL -- so in that race the NRL is going to get more attention than Super League (and they do).

As for what rugby would be competing against in warmer months, there's almost no audience for cricket right now as it is -- certainly not in the stands, not sure about television. I don't think rugby would have much to fear from them. If you're talking test matches, the rugby could be a nice respite between sessions. And rugby's already competing against football. Its big competition would be Super League and the general rugby fan's attention would be split between NH competition and Super Rugby.

It's a known unknown, but I think there's more at stake than just a couple of NH clubs making more money.

GAA in Ireland. France going on shut down for the whole of the summer and Cricket in England, 20/20 and test matches, drawing many of the same crowd as rugby would be three sound enough reasons.

The six nations is not going to move. Sorry, but the English establishment bray and snort in the West car park behind their Range Rovers every February and March. It comes just after the end of the shooting season and provides a nice distraction before the fishing starts up and then it is cricket and horse racing. Whether we like it or not, the NH have all the financial power in rugby and it is the six nations that reinforces that.

Quick Hands idea could fit quite well however.

 

[Omar Comin']

Rugby league attendance has fallen through the floor since it moved to the summer.

The six nations in February and March has no major competition from other sports, move it and it will be competing with the culmination of the football league, formula 1 and, God forbid, cricket.

Rugby is a winter game, it is not basketball. Closing down the rugby season in December and January in the NH would be an absolute disaster for the game.

No major competition!? It competes with all the major football leagues of Europe!

Play it in October and it's the same, just in better weather.

Also, Super League attendances rose from the mid 90's (when the summer season was introduced) to the late 2000's. They've fallen a bit in the last couple of years.

 

[the plastic paddy]

It's not an actual summer season though is it. The season would be played in Spring, Summer and Autumn, rather than Autumn, Winter and Spring. By avoiding most of winter you avoid competing with football for a couple of month, and if you've ever lived in Europe you'd know football dwarves any of the summer sports you mentioned 50 times over.

And by having the tours to the southern hemisphere in July, you'd miss out on the peak of summer - and much of the 'holiday mode' period.

I'd bet that the crowds in most places would not be lower in June or August than they are in December or January. Good weather encourages attendance, that is a fact.

The people most against this are always the Irish, and that's fair enough because in Ireland the GAA sports are very dominant in summer. Elsewhere the summer sports are blips on the radar compared to football.

Your statement at the end "and they don't particularly mind the style of rugby being played" is not really true in my experience living here. Maybe it's true of the absolute rusted on tragic British or Irish rugby fan, but most people prefer a game to be entertaining. And I'd say people are more fed up with scrum collapses and cynical tactics here in the UK than they are in Australia (which makes sense cause they see so much more of it).

The quality of a lot of the Pro 12 and Aviva Premiership rugby at this time of year is pretty terrible. Rugby is a better game when played in decent weather on a firm pitch. Saying it's "a winter sport" is just holding onto tradition for the sake of it. For participation that's fine, but at the professional level it's not a sport that suits being played at 5 degrees on a muddy field.

In your opinion it is a better game in decent weather on a firm pitch. There are many, many rugby supporters in the NH who can see a great deal of beauty in a 3-0 win on a cabbage patch, in a hurricane, with the backs requiring treatment for hypothermia.