3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]

[Dave Beat]

But still I agree Dave there should be a spread in talent. The minor markets can't have a squad that's 200% the strength of the major markets teams. But this also isn't State of Origin, these players are now live in Melbourne and Perth you need to remember.

Not going to argue, we can sell all sorts of approaches, and I want to see it work.

I want to see their fringe players having a chance, I want to see the U19 / U20 / U21 having a crack in a 3T Under 21's comp.


Whilst Rebels and Force can be classified as Employers, fund their players so there for have a say, but, where would they be without the ARU funding them?

Maybe the ARU model covers these predicaments.

 

[Quick Hands]

As I understand it, at the moment Rebels, Force and Brumbies players who are affiliated with Sydney or Brisbane clubs return to those clubs at the end of the super season. The reason for this is that the club competitions in Melbourne, Perth and Canberra are of a lesser standard that in Sydney. I think that one of the objectives of 3T is that this is no longer necessary as the players would play for the Melbourne, Perth or Canberra entity in the 3T competition as it would be higher standard than club rugby. Local players from those cities would also be part of the team, thus allowing them to also experience a higher standard of rugby and hopefully improve the standard of all levels of the game in those cities.

 

[Rugby Central]

Disclaimer: Just had Christmas lunch

I'm sorry Bruce and Dave, Shute Shield has had 100 years to sort this out. Even at it's most cynical they've had 18 years since professionalism. The rights of individual clubs to hold on to players is gone. They did what they could for their own patch over the last few years and in Uni and Manly's case that's quite a bit. But they've had their chance to do something for the game. Now the ARU is finally getting off their fat lazy arse to do something, the clubs should not stand in the way.

But then again, I'd back myself as a harder runner than Nonu right now, so what would I know

 

[Dave Beat]

Disclaimer: Just had Christmas lunch

I'm sorry Bruce and Dave, Shute Shield has had 100 years to sort this out. Even at it's most cynical they've had 18 years since professionalism. The rights of individual clubs to hold on to players is gone. They did what they could for their own patch over the last few years and in Uni and Manly's case that's quite a bit. But they've had their chance to do something for the game. Now the ARU is finally getting off their fat lazy arse to do something, the clubs should not stand in the way.

But then again, I'd back myself as a harder runner than Nonu right now, so what would I know

And no doubt a fend like Jonah as well.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, how do you justify your view that the clubs "own" the players? If player A is developed by Sydney Uni for example, and then is offered incentives by Manly and leaves for Manly for example, providing there is no justification to block a clearance, their association with the club ceases.

Yet if said player is developed by Sydney Uni for example, and then is offered a salary by the Melbourne Rebels to play rugby for a living, they should then be bound to represent Sydney Uni any chance they have?

I'm all for players having loyalty to their clubs. That's what Rugby is all about in my view. However you cannot discount the Melbourne Rebels for example, rights as a players employer to expect players to play games at their direction and not compete in any other endeavours of a Rugby Union nature without their approval. That is how employment contracts work for large companies, or at least those which I have worked for.

The foundation for rational debate, TWaS, is that each side actually comprehends what the other side is saying and then uses that as a basis for reply.

I defy you to show how anything that I have written could in any way be interpreted as claiming that "the clubs 'own' the players." Not just what I have posted above but in any one of the two thousand odd posts I have made on this forum.
.

 

[Train Without a Station]

It seemed to be implied when you claimed that the salary paid to the player by the franchise, does not outweigh the development put into the player by the club.

If this is not the case you must be in agreement that the franchises have full rights to the services of the players they contract and remunerate to be conducted at their own discretion for the period which they contract them.

Obviously it's not complete black and white, but one would either lean towards the clubs or the franchises in this argument.

 

[Bruce Ross]

TWaS, you are using a system of logical inference with which I am totally unfamiliar, although I note that something very similar has pervaded Federal politics.
.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think that the argument about where players go after Super 15 finishes is now somewhat academic anyway. Surely all contracted Force, Rebels and Brumbies players will play with Perth, Melbourne and Canberra 3T teams respectively? They would have been training in those cities for months, why would they move back to Sydney or Brisbane for 3T? It makes no sense to me. Rugby has to have more than a transient presence in Perth and Melbourne to grow the game.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

not such a bad problem to have.

Bodes well for the future of the competition if there is a sponsor willing to to commit to it for 3 to 5 years.

 

[Brumbieman]

Realistically, RE Sydney we can only have two teams to begin with.

Western Sydney Rams, play in Parramatta, and cover from about Lidcombe-ish west.

At the end of the day, players good enough for this comp and going to be found, and if someone playing for western Sydney comes from Campbeltown, is anyone going to give a rats arse? The point is that the TEAM is based there, and plays their home games there, so that people from the Blue Mountains and the rest of the far west of Sydney, right through to the inner-ish west don't have to travel 2 hours to go see a game of rugby.

 

[Quick Hands]

If there are TV rights and a major sponsor involved, they will have a major say in how many teams are involved. i.e. if Fox want 8 teams there'll be 8, if they want 10 teams, there'll be 10.

The number of teams will in turn determine how many in Sydney and Qld.

8 teams = 3 x Syd and 2 x Bris
10 teams = 4 x Sydn and 3 x Bris/SEQ

 

[wamberal]

Tom Tate, the mayor of the Gold Coast, was on the box last night talking about attracting major sporting franchises to the Goldie. He specifically mentioned SupeRugby. I take this with a very big bucket of salt. However, this m-i-g-h-t mean that there will be some interested in a local third tier franchise.

There are a helluva lot of Fleewees living on the Goldie. If they could be harnessed to follow a local team, it would have a chance of success.

 

[p.Tah]

The GOld Coast really? Isn't that the grave yard of sporting teams?

I dont know about the GC and the 3rd tier. The kiwis haven't rocked up for the GC 7s.

 

[Quick Hands]

The GOld Coast really? Isn't that the grave yard of sporting teams?

I dont know about the GC and the 3rd tier. The kiwis haven't rocked up for the GC 7s.

It traditionally has been a graveyard for sporting teams. Interesting to see if they get a 3rd Brisbane/SEQ 3T team there. They have a 1st class facility, which I assume that the council wants to see used by as many codes as possible. Again, I suspect that TV rights and sponsors wishes will play a role in this as will any assistance offered by GC Regional Council and Qld government.

 

[wamberal]

The GOld Coast really? Isn't that the grave yard of sporting teams?

I dont know about the GC and the 3rd tier. The kiwis haven't rocked up for the GC 7s.

Well, no, that's why the bucket of salt is called for. However, it is actually a pretty well populated area, with a good stadium.

 

[Done that]

I think that the argument about where players go after Super 15 finishes is now somewhat academic anyway. Surely all contracted Force, Rebels and Brumbies players will play with Perth, Melbourne and Canberra 3T teams respectively? They would have been training in those cities for months, why would they move back to Sydney or Brisbane for 3T? It makes no sense to me. Rugby has to have more than a transient presence in Perth and Melbourne to grow the game.

That's assuming all Super 15 players want to play in the 3T competition,& bearing in mind some players are contracted to Shute Shield clubs.

 

[Slim 293]

That's assuming all Super 15 players want to play in the 3T competition,& bearing in mind some players are contracted to Shute Shield clubs.

Shute Shield contracts?

The new competition will obviously supersede club level..........

 

[TOCC]

I don't think the Gold Coast should be considered, there is no point playing at a nice stadium if there is only 1000 people in the stands. This tournament needs to be established with minimal financial liabilities, and as it stands the Gold Coast is a giant liability.

Gold Coast ltd, the body who controls rugby on the Gold Coast has been a financial basket case for the last few years, running at losses and having to turn to the QRU for support.

Furthermore there are realistically only a few players based on the Gold Coast who would be selected in a third-tier team, the bulk of players will be from Brisbane Premier Grade clubs. Straight away you are going to either have a logistical nightmare of making players transit 70-90min for each training session or have the Gold Coast team training in Brisbane.

The Gold Coast council itself is also a basket case, what Tom Tate says and what he actually intends to do are separate matters. There may be a small opportunity for the GCCC to come on board as a sponsor for the new team, but i doubt they will offer enough to guarantee financial viability, so unless Bond University comes to the party with a sizeable contribution then the concept is a moot one.

 

[Quick Hands]

That's assuming all Super 15 players want to play in the 3T competition,& bearing in mind some players are contracted to Shute Shield clubs.

Why would Super Rugby players want to play Shute Shield in preference to 3T?

As I understand the new structure, once super rugby finishes players will either be selected for the Wallabies or will play 3T, which will be played at the same time as the internationals. I don't think super or test players will play club rugby at all under this model. I can be corrected on this, but that is how I understand it.

 

[Done that]

Shute Shield contracts?

The new competition will obviously supersede club level....

"supersede" in what sense?
Do you mean legally?