3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]
- Thread starter Bowside
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WorkingClassRugger
David Codey (61)
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Glad to see you've come around to the view that the national body can prop up unprofitable franchises for the long term good of the game.
South-west Sydney would fall into the same category wouldn't it?
T
Train Without a Station
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Glad to see you've come around to the view that the national body can prop up unprofitable franchises for the long term good of the game.
South-west Sydney would fall into the same category wouldn't it?
I never disagreed. I disagreed with popping a number of teams in one market.
I'm sure between the South East private school toffs and the North West islander community you could have great catchment for 2 teams in Melbourne. Doesn't mean it's a great idea...
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
It isn't a great idea, but SW Sydney is.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
What is that based on other than potential athletic talent? If there's so much of it that is interested in rugby, why aren't they playing for local clubs at all out there?
I'm not too phased where 3rd tier teams are based in each city. I merely believe that less is more. I can understand why in setting up a national comp, so many people want to emulate the biggest issues in the NRL, and push for as many teams as possible in single cities. If one team is in SW Sydney great, have one more in NE Sydney and let's go from there. I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware the Currie Cup doesn't have north, east and south west Pretoria teams...
I will admit logistically I think it would be easier to base teams in the region where most of the players would be. This isn't the AFL... The ARU doesn't have the money to hope a team will be supported by the kids born today when they are adults.
No.8
Phil Hardcastle (33)
This format is perfect in IMO.
I think we should just be excited for more local rugby - I cant wait to go down and watch this comp and will prob travel to watch a few games - also for local players its a stepping stone to a full-time professional contract.
Aussie rugby is on the up for the 1st time in prob 4,5,6 years - lets just be pleased and sit back and enjoy....
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
It's based on rugby's need to expand beyond it's very narrow footprint in Sydney. They're not playing for local junior clubs out there because there aren't any - that is the problem, no rugby presence in a huge population area in the biggest rugby city in Australia.
South Africa is completely different as rugby is their major code and they don't really have to try to spread the game. Rugby in Australia faces challenges faced by no other major rugby nation; i.e. the presence of league and aussie rules as competitors for junior players.
You actually do want today's kids involved in the game. When the kids support sporting teams, their parents usually take them to the games.
If we were to be purely rational and pick teams on (a) economics and (b) established playing strength, the competion would look something like:
Syd Uni, Manly, Eastwood, Southern Dist, Uni Qld, GPS Bris, Brothers, Easts Bris, Tuggeranong & Canberra Royals.
No-one is suggesting that, because in Australia we also have to use 3T as an expansion tool as well as an elite competition. You're using the same players, they're just playing in different parts of the country in different jumpers.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
QH, I just don't get where you are coming from and why Western Sydney is any different to anywhere.
You could argue that some of these young AFL recruits could be future locks, loosies and outside backs. Better set up multiple regions of WA, SA and Vic too just to catch them.
Bottom line is it all cannot be captured immediately. I would argue if there is no RU presence at all in Western Sydney then locating a 3rd tier team there filled with players who are travelling to train there and therefore adding further cost is not something that is the most cost effective way to kick the comp off.
Gold Coast has it's own rugby competition and both junior club and school rugby. Nobody is saying we should have a team there. Yet based on what you are saying, the support for the code is already stronger.
Wouldn't the wisest use of ARU's limited funds be to try and establish a presence through junior and senior clubs in the region, perhaps subsidising the cost of a subbies comp in order to boost the playing numbers and therefore interest? Kids aren't going to give a flying fuck about some new team playing a game they don't even have a local club or school to play for.
But ultimately, I'm not trying to discount the region of Western Sydney and the notion of trying to develop rugby further there. I don't think a team in this competition is going to do anything for it. Based on what you are saying the lack of local clubs is the issue, and that needs to be built up first. If you said the ARU should be directing some of their limited resources to addressing this... I wholeheartedly agree. It's a blight on the previous NSWRU and ARU administration that this area with a high islander population, which has an historic link with Rugby due to their heritage, has been left to be lead to other codes due to lack of any development presence from Rugby Union.
You could argue that some of these young AFL recruits could be future locks, loosies and outside backs. Better set up multiple regions of WA, SA and Vic too just to catch them.
Bottom line is it all cannot be captured immediately. I would argue if there is no RU presence at all in Western Sydney then locating a 3rd tier team there filled with players who are travelling to train there and therefore adding further cost is not something that is the most cost effective way to kick the comp off.
Gold Coast has it's own rugby competition and both junior club and school rugby. Nobody is saying we should have a team there. Yet based on what you are saying, the support for the code is already stronger.
Wouldn't the wisest use of ARU's limited funds be to try and establish a presence through junior and senior clubs in the region, perhaps subsidising the cost of a subbies comp in order to boost the playing numbers and therefore interest? Kids aren't going to give a flying fuck about some new team playing a game they don't even have a local club or school to play for.
But ultimately, I'm not trying to discount the region of Western Sydney and the notion of trying to develop rugby further there. I don't think a team in this competition is going to do anything for it. Based on what you are saying the lack of local clubs is the issue, and that needs to be built up first. If you said the ARU should be directing some of their limited resources to addressing this... I wholeheartedly agree. It's a blight on the previous NSWRU and ARU administration that this area with a high islander population, which has an historic link with Rugby due to their heritage, has been left to be lead to other codes due to lack of any development presence from Rugby Union.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Regardless of the final makeup of the competition, at least the ARU have the blueprint of how not to do it. See ARC, they couldn't have got much more wrong if they tried.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Where I'm coming from is trying to get more kids playing rugby.
I think that it's much easier to convert potential league players to rugby than potential AFL players, particularly when there are significant clusters of pacific islanders residing in SW Sydney who have no rugby option so they play league. Many of these boys have fathers who played rugby, so you've got some connection to the game.
I don't know enough about the Gold Coast to comment. Could be an option for the 3rd Brisbane team, or maybe somewhere else in SE Qld would be better. I'll leave that to people who know more than me.
I agree completely with your last paragraph, where we differ slightly is how to rectify a situation that has followed decades of complacent neglect. Rugby is the only sporting code that hasn't spread at the same rate as Sydney has expanded, we're miles behind and need to try to use what resources we have to make up at least some ground. There is no perfect solution to this issue, they will all cost money and require significant hard work. Why I like the idea of 3T there is that you are already paying the players from a central pool, so you're not spending any extra money, you're trying to get 2 things from the same money; (a) a 3rd tier team and (b) exposure and promotion in your most neglected region.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
RE: The Gold Coast. I would discount it as an option. Not because it's not a valid location, support base for the game, lack of ground, etc. Just because we need to limit the spread of the team in specific regions to begin with at least, in order to exercise an appropriately cautious approach and the Gold Coast would be 1 hour down the road from the Brisbane team. The larger the catchment area, the more potential support for one team, but that's relying on the success of the competition from a supporter base point of view (which the ITM Cup is not).
Back to Western Sydney, I guess where we differ is you're taking the field of dreams approach (if we build it, they will come), and I'm probably being extremely pessimistic saying if there's no presence, there'll be no support. Let's just leave it and say you may be being naïve, and I definitely am being pessimistic and hope for the sake of the game I'm the one who ends up wrong.
Back to Western Sydney, I guess where we differ is you're taking the field of dreams approach (if we build it, they will come), and I'm probably being extremely pessimistic saying if there's no presence, there'll be no support. Let's just leave it and say you may be being naïve, and I definitely am being pessimistic and hope for the sake of the game I'm the one who ends up wrong.
T
Tigers Tale
Guest
Belly Two Blues - your name says it all this is an incredibly Sydney/NSW centric proposal.
Why should Sunnybank (finished 5th) & QLD Uni (3rd) be given entry when they didn't even feature in the Brisbane Premier grade Grand Final (2013).
Maybe more research and less typing and you might come up with something that is worth more than two bob!!
WorkingClassRugger
David Codey (61)
There are Rugby people in the West. Certainly enough to support a Western Sydney team if they are looking for crowds in and around the 5,000 mark to start. The key will be to market it to them better than it was in the ARC.
No.8
Phil Hardcastle (33)
We also have to remember the ARU put no effort into the ARC when it was launched it was simply the answer to a million questions people were asking and then at least the ARU could turn around and say "at least we tried" - I honestly believe it was just a front to hide them and for them to say we tried it - I dont think there were any plans for it to be a long term thing.
I think now is different and now Australian rugby NEEDS it to survive - simple as that - with a 3rd tier comp Australian rugby will not survive in the top 3-5 nations over the next 10-15 years...
I think now is different and now Australian rugby NEEDS it to survive - simple as that - with a 3rd tier comp Australian rugby will not survive in the top 3-5 nations over the next 10-15 years...
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