Where to for Super Rugby?

[RedsHappy]

Are you a moderator HB?

Perhaps HB is a member of the ARU's notorious Bomb Disposal Unit.

Unfortunately their BDU, whilst recently run off its feet, is still in 'test and learn' mode as the majority of its recent attempts at defusing have ended in further unplanned explosions reducing the number of the Unit's personnel to dangerously low levels.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Ok here is a thought - if Force get culled.....

Improve Sunwolves by playing games they normally would play in Singapore in Perth and allow recruitment / allocation of say 4-6 WA players for Sunwolves squad.

Ok would be better if Force had a team in itself and own right but looking at some better plan B's for WA rugby. Surely with poor performance of Sunwolves options like this WA rugby could look at and be in discussions with Sunwolves on as plan B's.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Does anyone know what the chat out of SA is ?

Further to dru's excellent post above, the criteria for deciding who stays & who goes are:

Financial and economic sustainability
sustainable support base
team performance
stadium and facilities.

Given the Kings are broke & running last in the SA Group surely they'll be the first to be cut or re-merged with the Sharks as was the case when SA went to franchises in 1998. Not sure how the rest of the SA sides stack up in terms of the criteria, maybe our SA friends can enlighten us?

 

[dru]

Further to dru's excellent post above, the criteria for deciding who stays & who goes are:

Financial and economic sustainability
sustainable support base
team performance
stadium and facilities.

Given the Kings are broke & running last in the SA Group surely they'll be the first to be cut or re-merged with the Sharks as was the case when SA went to franchises in 1998. Not sure how the rest of the SA sides stack up in terms of the criteria, maybe our SA friends can enlighten us?

In short WoB these criteria are written to cull Kings and Cheetahs.

Let's run an probably biassed eye over the Cheetahs:

1. Financial and economic stability: good. But with that word stability may come with a caveat related to the next item.

2. Sustainable support base: population is smaller than the big franchises. Articles are out there comparing how much of the support base must turn up to a game to fill the stadium. Results on this criteria are poor. But not as bad as Kings.

3. Team performance: Cheetahs on a hiding to nothing here. They will be compared to both Rebels and the Force. Problem is they had a lack of stability, in Super one year, not the next, as the Kings plight changed year on year for the last franchise. It's an unfair test, but Cheetahs fail.
EDIT: got that wrong it was the Lions who lacked continuity. Cheetahs fail this test.

4. Stadium and facilities. Odd criteria (the 6 franchise stadia are surely proven at RWC and Super level). Facilities may relate to HPU and the like as a "gotcha" to Kings who afaik are still using the SARU mobie unit.

Bulls have been ramping up vote strength and influence, they stay. Lions are a powerhouse, they stay although the Cats thing will be discussed again. Sharks I dont know much about, but you'd think they are safe. Stormers have some interesting reporting to do, given their poor financial state. But they will outrank Cheetahs.

Anyone seriously believe that transformation is not a criteria here?

Another missing criteria are things we have discussed in Aus - grass roots, also adult age groups, varsity etc, pathways generally super players generated and national reps generated. Cheeatahs would do very well on these criteria.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Dru, you quite clearly have a better fix on the SA rugby scene than I do, but in my recollection it was the Lions, not the Cheetahs, who were dicked around with the Kings comings and goings. Am I wrong?

 

[The Honey Badger]

Are you a moderator HB?

No, just someone who is sick of reading all the crap about the the ARU.

Its all history, what is relevant to this thread is how it is going to be fixed.

I think it is an impossible situation. Iam sure the ARU dont want to do it, but a side must be cut to otherwise the whole lot will go broke.

To me any restructure must address crowd attendance and TV Viewership and I cant see for the life of me how pulling a team will address the underlying issue. In fact will only make it worse.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Dru, I think there's a front page article lurking in your last two posts...........

 

[Quick Hands]

The bigger issue NZ has is that SA and OZ are likely (or at least should) be removing their focus on Super Rugby as the pinnacle and looking to strengthen their domestic competition and/or finding alternatives that better support their domestic teams. So NZ can't just sit there and think Super Rugby can continue to be beneficial to them without change as they will end up not having many others to play them or watch them outside of NZ.

Hence, NZ do seriously need to consider alternatives as Super Rugby in its current format is dead imo beyond this current broadcast deal.

If you want any further evidence of this, note the Crusaders v Sunwolves game from last night.

This is the future that is going to save the super rugby concept?

 

[wamberal]

Oh, how I wish that Soup could be saved. What is the alternative?


The Keewees do not want to play us in a Trans-Tasman competition. So that leaves an Australian competition.


How would it be funded? Would Fox Sports pay enough? If they do, that certainly rules out any kind of FTA presence, which kind of puts us back to the beginning, really.

If Fox Sports does not pay enough, what then?


Honestly and truly, we have our nuts caught in a wringer.

 

[TOCC]

Ok here is a thought - if Force get culled...

Improve Sunwolves by playing games they normally would play in Singapore in Perth and allow recruitment / allocation of say 4-6 WA players for Sunwolves squad.

Ok would be better if Force had a team in itself and own right but looking at some better plan B's for WA rugby. Surely with poor performance of Sunwolves options like this WA rugby could look at and be in discussions with Sunwolves on as plan B's.

Ii was just thinking someone similar..

My understanding is that the Sunwolves will not play any games in Singapore next year, all home games will be in Japan, Singapore was just to serve the SARU needs but Australia has direct flights to Japan so it's not really an issue if they're in the Oz conference.

But.. let's say a team is cut, why shouldn't the ARU demand that the Sunwolves play a couple of their home games games in the city which loses the team. Establish some links between the Sunwolves and the city, perhaps through some players playing in the NRC or training academies.

It's not ideal for the Sunwolves, nor the Australian fans, but it provides the rugby fans in the city which is losing a team something to watch.

 

[wamberal]

Demand?

 

[ChargerWA]

With the Rebels media release last night I now see this only going 1 way.

ARU negotiate with Cox for the Rebels license back. Why would you want to keep him when he is clearly angling for financial damages as well as a chunk of any savings you make from cutting a team. He's going to be a thorn in your side so why not just take the pain and get rid of him now. I'd imagine this is the ARU's realisation now.

 

[BLR]

Ok here is a thought - if Force get culled...

Improve Sunwolves by playing games they normally would play in Singapore in Perth and allow recruitment / allocation of say 4-6 WA players for Sunwolves squad.

Ok would be better if Force had a team in itself and own right but looking at some better plan B's for WA rugby. Surely with poor performance of Sunwolves options like this WA rugby could look at and be in discussions with Sunwolves on as plan B's.

With all due respect, as has been mentioned multiple times by posters on here, as well as people like Sharpie. If WA is cut there is no rugby in WA, I am sure most rugby fans would view it as it is, a half assed way to satiate us and distract us from being bent over a table.

 

[Leo86]

1 - I dont think thd ARU could even demand a seat at the adults table

2 - Talk about going backwards. I have 0 interest in watching the sunwolves. Its been hard at times being a Force fan but I as many others have stuck through. Since the off season i was excited about this season, Wessels made a lot of good calls.

3 - Where to. 3 conferences of 6. Some say its hard to follow but we all seem to figure out the pool system in RWC. ARU tighten up the purse strings on all 5 franchises and quit loading up certain teams. We lost Nick Cummins to bring in a league player who dabbled in AFL but no money to prop up a player at the Force.

ARU need to open the books show where the money is really going and sort this shit out

 

[Caputo]

One shame I feel is that both NSW and QLD haven't done enough. They have always had the pick of the players and I do not feel they will better from the distribution of the liquidated franchise.

Of both Rebels and Force I see only 10 players that the other 4 teams will be interested in. Then there will be players foisted upon them because of existing contract

Rebels 10
Toby Smith
James Hanson
Laurie Weeks
Tyrel Lomax
Lopeti Timani
Sean McMahon
Amanaki Mafi
Nick Stirzaker
Sefa Naivalu
Reece Hodge
Marika Koroibete.

Force 10
Adam Coleman
Tetra Faulkner
Ben McCalman
Richard Hardwick
Isa Naisarani
Jono Lance
Curtis Rona
Bill Meakes
Chance Peni
Dane Haylett-Petty

A lot of players would be considered equally good and each remaining would like their guys.

An Example at TH Makin/Lomax/Vui/Tupou/Dave Lolohea

 

[Slim 293]

3. ACT population of 400000 cannot sustain a super rugby franchise

If that's the criteria then we're going to have to ditch all the Kiwi teams bar Auckland...........

I don't think Dismal will mind.

 

[Omar Comin']

Oh, how I wish that Soup could be saved. What is the alternative?

The Keewees do not want to play us in a Trans-Tasman competition. So that leaves an Australian competition.

How would it be funded? Would Fox Sports pay enough? If they do, that certainly rules out any kind of FTA presence, which kind of puts us back to the beginning, really.

If Fox Sports does not pay enough, what then?

Honestly and truly, we have our nuts caught in a wringer.

Depends on the objective of such a competition. Is it to continue to keep the top Australian players based domestically so that the Wallabies selection policy can remain the same?

Or would it be better to let the Wallabies be picked from anywhere and focus on building a domestic competition that's both financially sustainable and gives rugby greater geographic reach in Australia and quantity of content?

If the former you'd probably have to start with no more than 6 teams with each playing the others 3 times, and you'd need Fox (or any broadcaster) to guarantee the ARU similar revenues to what they get for Super Rugby now (net of travel expenses). The only way you could have more than 6 teams would be if there was interest from the Pacific or Asia to join.

If the latter, the competition can be as big or as small as revenues allow, and it could be run over a longer period of time like the AFL and NRL. As long as there's enough money to keep 8-10 teams fully professional (enough for all players to be full time) then it'd be a good standard (higher than the ITM Cup and Currie Cups for example) that could be built upon over time.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Ii was just thinking someone similar..

My understanding is that the Sunwolves will not play any games in Singapore next year, all home games will be in Japan, Singapore was just to serve the SARU needs but Australia has direct flights to Japan so it's not really an issue if they're in the Oz conference.

But.. let's say a team is cut, why shouldn't the ARU demand that the Sunwolves play a couple of their home games games in the city which loses the team. Establish some links between the Sunwolves and the city, perhaps through some players playing in the NRC or training academies.

It's not ideal for the Sunwolves, nor the Australian fans, but it provides the rugby fans in the city which is losing a team something to watch.

After watching the Sunwolves for the first time in a long time (and maybe ever) I just cannot fathom why they are to survive and, worse, be in our conference.
They are appalling in a way that no Aussie team has ever been.
In our pool they will be a soft game: so not only do we lose 35+ pro pathways and opportunities for the Tahs and Reds usual talent oversights to get a chance, we also lose 2 hard games in circumstances where most agree that a lack of enough hard games in the early adult/late teenage years is having a large impact on our players' readiness for the big time, including the U20s WC.

 

[Quick Hands]

Ok here is a thought - if Force get culled...

Improve Sunwolves by playing games they normally would play in Singapore in Perth and allow recruitment / allocation of say 4-6 WA players for Sunwolves squad.

Ok would be better if Force had a team in itself and own right but looking at some better plan B's for WA rugby. Surely with poor performance of Sunwolves options like this WA rugby could look at and be in discussions with Sunwolves on as plan B's.

The problem would be the support that the Sunwolves would get in Perth. They're weaker that the Force (even when Foley was coaching them), so I can't see many turning up to watch.

On a similar line of thought, one thing that could have been considered was basing a combined Pacific Islands team in Melbourne - they would be competitive, there's a sizeable PI community in Melbourne and most importantly there would probably have been funding from the IRB/WR (World Rugby) (as Fiji are getting for the NRC). Probably too late now though as I think we have past the point of no return.

There are alternatives and different options out there, but they need to be evaluated with proper cost benefit analyses and the need to fit within a national strategy for the game. Sadly, we've seen none of this from the ARU since the professional era began.

The problems currently besetting rugby in Australia and the Super rugby concept were neither unforeseen or unforseeable - indeed many of us have been predicting this scenario for quite a while. In fact we know that the ARU was told by two separate independent reports that Super 18 was going to be a disaster, but they pressed on regardless.

 

[wamberal]

Links? For the two separate independent reports.