Where to for Super Rugby?

[Gnostic]

Very impressive on both tKick & Chase and on Alan Jones. His lack of a temper may explain why he didn't go further in the game - I would have walked out if Jones treated me like he treated Clyne.

However - where did the $770,000,000 the ARU has run through its books (according to Jones) since 2007 go?

We know JON got $2m but what about the other $768m?

Thing is unless you are somebody who Jones particularly likes this is always the way he attacks people. If I was looking at Jones in similar fashion I certainly wouldn't take it, but then I wouldn't be there in the first place knowing what it would be.

In any event the ARU executive has to understand that they no longer have any standing or respect from a vast majority of the fans who are left. In such a situation they could sun the sun is hot and they would be looked at sceptically and with justification.

 

[KevinO]

from what's been said by Clyne and Pulver, and the Force head honchos, in the last couple of days, the decision will be based on the least worst financial scenario, ie what will cost the ARU the lesser amount, being sued by the Force and it seems that will not result in money, just the injunction to stop the ARU taking the Force out of Super Rugby, or being sued by Imperium, which will actually cost real dollars.

The only hope for the Force, and it is a very real hope, is that Cox has had enough, may cut his losses and will take some money and run.

In theory, i suppose, if the Force raise sufficient capital, they may be able to buy out all ARU involvement, run the program themselves, thereby taking away the expense from the ARU, who could dump the Rebels and only have to fund three franchises.

So Own the Force goes well this year,

What happens in 3 years when they are running themselves and the die hards stop putting their hard earned cash? The novelty will wear off.

Edit: Not meaning to offend any Force fans

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[BLR]

So Own the Force goes well this year bla bla bla.

What happens in 3 years when they are running themselves and the die hards stop putting their hard earned cash? The novelty will wear off.

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Ask that to Green Bay Packers or Barcelona mate.

Also, what is the future for the Rebels with a owner who lost $2 million last year and has already set a price to walk out.

We can do this all day.

 

[Leo86]

So Own the Force goes well this year bla bla bla.

What happens in 3 years when they are running themselves and the die hards stop putting their hard earned cash? The novelty will wear off.

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Ease up

Same as what gappens when ARU want to stop throwing cash - currently happening.

Same as what happens when you private owner wants to stop throwing cash - potentially currently happening.

Glass houses, throwing stones.

What the force are doing is creating a way to be financially independant

ill continue to push it. 5 Aussie teams at least to 2020 the contracts/agreements. Give all the franchises time to sort it out or lose out off their own back. Not just Force or Rebels but all 5 to turn around all of Australian rugbys financial woes to either make it sustainable or go down this horrible path we currently are with out warning nor consideration for the long term impacts

 

[amirite]

Grass roots sports is used to running off the smell of an oily rag, they would be thrilled to have more money but getting the Wallabies winning will get more kids playing than incentives at grass roots.

Good first post (as many have said).

The fact of the matter is, if you gave grass routes clubs a bucket of money I'm not sure for the most part it would be well spent. For example, how many people spent their KRudd stimulus package on meaningful stuff?

Another issue is everyone defines grass routes differently. Papworth considers Shute Shield grass routes, for example.

Thing is unless you are somebody who Jones particularly likes this is always the way he attacks people.

I don't listen to his show with the exception of this excerpt, and honestly I was appalled. If you want to skewer a guy, ask a good question and give him enough rope to hang himself. Don't yell over him non-stop for 15 minutes and call him a liar when he tries to answer.

The whole "you didn't go to the Shute Shield GF" bit was particularly ridiculous.

Ask that to Green Bay Packers or Barcelona mate.

When the Force are a foundation NFL team or arguably the world's most famous football team, with international marketability, then that will be a valid example. Currently, it is not.

Obviously this whole issue has roused the Force fan base, and that's awesome. But, if they kept their team will this fire still burn come 2019 late season with the Force sitting in the bottom third of the table? Doubtful.

 

[Omar Comin']

When the Force are a foundation NFL team or arguably the world's most famous football team, with international marketability, then that will be a valid example. Currently, it is not.

There are many, many other successful examples on a smaller scale than Barcelona and Green Bay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fan-owned_sports_teams

Agreed the Cameron Clyne interview was appalling, but it's definitely worth listening to Jones's interview with the President of Rugby WA Hans Sauer if you haven't: http://www.2gb.com/podcast/hans-sauer/

 

[Micheal]

So Own the Force goes well this year,

What happens in 3 years when they are running themselves and the die hards stop putting their hard earned cash? The novelty will wear off.

Edit: Not meaning to offend any Force fans

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Suppose they raise 10 million dollars this year (the full amount subscribed) and assuming an annual return of 6% (e.g. within a fixed income fund), with 50% of each years return invested into grass roots and 50% returning to the perpetuity, within 10 years the Force will have:

$3,439,163.79 in grass roots investment or additional player payments.
$13,047,731.84 in the perpetuity.

Not bad at all - certainly enough to ensure financial stability, even after the buyback of the IP etc. is accounted for.

If Pulver et al. doubled down on the Own the Force campaign as well I'm sure it could approach ~7 or 8 million.

 

[brokendown]

Good first post (as many have said).

The fact of the matter is, if you gave grass routes clubs a bucket of money I'm not sure for the most part it would be well spent. For example, how many people spent their KRudd stimulus package on meaningful stuff?

Another issue is everyone defines grass routes differently. Papworth considers Shute Shield grass routes, for example.

I don't listen to his show with the exception of this excerpt, and honestly I was appalled. If you want to skewer a guy, ask a good question and give him enough rope to hang himself. Don't yell over him non-stop for 15 minutes and call him a liar when he tries to answer.

The whole "you didn't go to the Shute Shield GF" bit was particularly ridiculous.


When the Force are a foundation NFL team or arguably the world's most famous football team, with international marketability, then that will be a valid example. Currently, it is not.

Obviously this whole issue has roused the Force fan base, and that's awesome. But, if they kept their team will this fire still burn come 2019 late season with the Force sitting in the bottom third of the table? Doubtful.

and where are the two powerhouse sides of Aussie rugby sitting at the moment?

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Back to the howls about 'grassroots rugby' from those involved in the semi-professional Shute Shield. Why do we never seem to hear this from the Subbies club officials (Hello, Pfitzy!), the SJRU or BJRU, or even Queensland Premier Rugby clubs?

I could be completely misguided, but I fail to see how delivering more funds to the Shute Shield is going to aid Australian (i.e. not just the Eastern Suburbs and North Shore of Sydney) Rugby. If one was really concerned about grassroots, the money would be better directed at the junior competitions around Australia. But in the great race of life, always back self interest...

 

[Quick Hands]

Back to the howls about 'grassroots rugby' from those involved in the semi-professional Shute Shield. Why do we never seem to hear this from the Subbies club officials (Hello, Pfitzy!), the SJRU or BJRU, or even Queensland Premier Rugby clubs?

I could be completely misguided, but I fail to see how delivering more funds to the Shute Shield is going to aid Australian (i.e. not just the Eastern Suburbs and North Shore of Sydney) Rugby. If one was really concerned about grassroots, the money would be better directed at the junior competitions around Australia. But in the great race of life, always back self interest.

I think that we get that you don't like the Shute Shield. Just so that you can set your mind at rest, it is now (from 2017) self-funding and receives no funds from either ARU or NSWRU. They even raised their own sponsorship to keep live FTA games on TV every Saturday.

I think that you'll find that all of the organisations that you've listed have been complaining about the lack of funding to "grass roots rugby" for some time. One of the problems that the ever-diminishing game of rugby faces in Australia is exactly this sort of small-minded us against them mentality - it does no one any good.

As an aside, the RFU in England provides funding to a range of clubs in order to advance the game there. This includes, gear, lighting, synthetic pitches, and a whole lot of other things. Funding clubs is actually a good thing; and I've made the comment before that any funding from the ARU or state unions to clubs should either be in kind (i.e. the provision of facilities, equipment or coaching) or in the form of tied grants (i.e. show us where the money has been spent and if it's on junior or youth development, we'll reimburse).

It remains to be seen how much, if any, of the savings made from cutting a super team make it to "grass roots rugby", but you can sleep soundly in your bed in the knowledge that those evil Shute Shield clubs won't be getting any cash from this.

 

[Jon]

Suppose they raise 10 million dollars this year (the full amount subscribed) and assuming an annual return of 6% (e.g. within a fixed income fund), with 50% of each years return invested into grass roots and 50% returning to the perpetuity, within 10 years the Force will have:

$3,439,163.79 in grass roots investment or additional player payments.
$13,047,731.84 in the perpetuity.

Not bad at all - certainly enough to ensure financial stability, even after the buyback of the IP etc. is accounted for.

If Pulver et al. doubled down on the Own the Force campaign as well I'm sure it could approach ~7 or 8 million.

There is also room for an over subscription to raise a total of $15 mil.

Making these numbers look all the better.

 

[Moono75]

Seems to be quite a few Rebels fans questioning the Force and efforts to survive. The WA fans and community are backing the team. Perhaps you should be asking yourselves what is your club and your fans doing other than relying on an owner to pull out their wallet and pay.

The Force matters because the club matters to us the fans, and we are willing to put our hands into our pockets to invest, in addition to paying membershps, buying merchandise and whatever else we can to help the club out.

So we are hoping for $5 to $15 million from the share offer, but we also have the biggest Super Rugby sponsorship of all OZ teams with options for 2 more years.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Good question Blue, I'd be interested to hear the answer as well. Not sure if anyone really knows. How much could Cox claim as damages if the Rebels are kicked out?

Everything he's spent, which he'll say was spent on an understanding he would have time on his side and he'll have some fancy numbers to show it was a bees dick away from turning a profit.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Everything he's spent, which he'll say was spent on an understanding he would have time on his side and he'll have some fancy numbers to show it was a bees dick away from turning a profit.

Actually creates an interesting evidentiary issue: would the ARU get some similarly fancy numbers to show the impossibility of a super franchise ever making money?

 

[stoff]

There is also room for an over subscription to raise a total of $15 mil.

Making these numbers look all the better.

I thought the fund was to buy the licence, and operate the Force, not a future fund for WA rugby development?


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[dru]

Back to the howls about 'grassroots rugby' from those involved in the semi-professional Shute Shield. Why do we never seem to hear this from the Subbies club officials (Hello, Pfitzy!), the SJRU or BJRU, or even Queensland Premier Rugby clubs?

I could be completely misguided, but I fail to see how delivering more funds to the Shute Shield is going to aid Australian (i.e. not just the Eastern Suburbs and North Shore of Sydney) Rugby. If one was really concerned about grassroots, the money would be better directed at the junior competitions around Australia. But in the great race of life, always back self interest.

It's a solid question that deserves an answer and so far nothing from the SRU big names. A few SS supporters and grass roots blokes here have tried, but I dont think to satisfying answers.

It seems clear that the term "grass roots" is mis-aprehended, the real issue of grass roots used as a smoke screen, where what is wanted is investment in the Premier clubs. Yes including their juniors and work through them to schools etc.

But I think I'm coming around.

 

[swingpass]

Seems to be quite a few Rebels fans questioning the Force and efforts to survive. The WA fans and community are backing the team. Perhaps you should be asking yourselves what is your club and your fans doing other than relying on an owner to pull out their wallet and pay.

not at all, certainly not from me any how. i've always thought "5 should survive", and if any franchise was wound up it should be the Brumbies merged with the Rebels, but i dont want to start that shit fight again.

above, i was making the observation that its far from over for the Force and i fear that Cox will up stumps and piss off.

personally i have also been very disappointed with the effort put in by the Rebels to galvanise support locally, seems fuck all really, which implies to me they know they are safe or gone, not "fighting" to influence the decision. of course i have no idea whats being done behind closed doors and there was no presser after the meeting with Pulver yesterday.

as an aside the whole super team concept is a terrible business model, each franchise should either be allowed to recruit whomsoever they want, with/without a salary cap restriction or there should be a cap and a draft, run centrally. as many have said the "product" is not selling and its only partly because of the "18" format, and its truncated season.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm surprised anyone in Melbourne who isn't a die hard rugby fan knows what's going on with the Rebels, because there's no media coverage down here sans the odd article in Fairfax...........

 

[sidelineview]

Back to the howls about 'grassroots rugby' from those involved in the semi-professional Shute Shield. Why do we never seem to hear this from the Subbies club officials (Hello, Pfitzy!), the SJRU or BJRU, or even Queensland Premier Rugby clubs?

I could be completely misguided, but I fail to see how delivering more funds to the Shute Shield is going to aid Australian (i.e. not just the Eastern Suburbs and North Shore of Sydney) Rugby. If one was really concerned about grassroots, the money would be better directed at the junior competitions around Australia. But in the great race of life, always back self interest.

I always thought the definition of grassroots rugby was junior club and school rugby.
That is where resources are needed as a priority, especially in the light of the competing sports of soccer and AFL.

 

[sidelineview]

Thing is unless you are somebody who Jones particularly likes this is always the way he attacks people. If I was looking at Jones in similar fashion I certainly wouldn't take it, but then I wouldn't be there in the first place knowing what it would be.

In any event the ARU executive has to understand that they no longer have any standing or respect from a vast majority of the fans who are left. In such a situation they could sun the sun is hot and they would be looked at sceptically and with justification.

That's true: the ARU are under attack and will be on the wrong end of criticism and understandably so.

The positives that came out of this interview, if you can call it that, is that Clyne handled it well and has received some favour from fans.
AS a figurehead he has restored some sort of confidence in the leadership of the ARU with a view of going forward and regardless of the current mess.

The other positive is that a media personality is giving this issue air time.
Jones didn't give Clyne a fair go in the interview and was his usual arrogant self but it got air time on radio with relevant points being made.
I dont like Jones either and didnt like him much when he helped South Sydney get back into the comp but help he did. That's a fact.

It will be interesting to see how he involves himself in this issue in future.

Yeah, I know you dont like him but the more exposure this issue receives in the media the better.