Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dan54]

Hey look fellas ,I not against it, just saying most I have spoke to in NZ very rarely watch games from Aus as games haven't generally started until 9.45pm and the reason even in Australia they used to move Force home games were played early because there was very little interest in staying up for kick offs after 8.30 or so. I know I very seldom saw any games that kicked off after 8pm, and I a real rugby tragic (though admittedly getting on a bit ) . See games played at night in SA are great for NZ as it is on at breakfast time, which to most is preferable to a game from Aus at 9.30-10pm which isn't finishing to midnight. See although SA not suitable for Aus I think it has to be assumed we have to look at every angle, not just what suits us living in Aus!

 

[Rebels3]

2am and 4am is a strange breakfast time.

An Aus/NZ comp with 5 matches a week would suit both parties, with the only non ideal time slot been there Friday night games in both countries. The kiwi game is impossible to watch from my end as I don’t get home until well until the middle of the 2nd half and the Aus game starts at 9.30NZ time, watchable but not child friendly.

The Saturday slots would be easily fixed if there was an afternoon game and a night game that starts at 6.30 local team in both countries.

History shows 7.30-9.30 is the most optimal time for TV

Game 1 Fri - 7.30 NZ/ 5.30 AUS
Game 2 Fri - 9.30 NZ/ 7.30 AUS
Game 3 Sat - 6.30 NZ/ 4.30 AUS
Game 4 Sat - 8.30 NZ/ 6.30 AUS
Game 5 Sun - 4.00 NZ/ 2.00 AUS

I think you’d have some happy broadcasters with that on offer every week. TV and sport in particular need consistency so fans build habits which then leads to partnerships because sponsors can target demographics on a consistent basis with their msg. Currently Super Rugby does not allow for this.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Funny how discussions get turned around and go off track. My initial comment was related to a perceived weakening of the SA teams due to the absence of restrictions on selection for the Boks, and queried if that might lead NZ rugby to look more favourably on a trans-Tasman comp. But it soon turned into a debate about the timing of games on tv in NZ which really had been done to death some time ago.

I think the SA sides were off the mark a little last year, but it looks like they could well be further below standard this year with all the losses of big name players to overseas. If this is a trend which continues, how long will it take for NZ viewers to start losing interest in games involving SA teams?

 

[Adam84]

There’s 11 hours difference between South Africa and New Zealand, 7pm in Johannesburg is 6am in Auckland.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

Funny how discussions get turned around and go off track. My initial comment was related to a perceived weakening of the SA teams due to the absence of restrictions on selection for the Boks, and queried if that might lead NZ rugby to look more favourably on a trans-Tasman comp.

Really good point about the weakening of SA teams however Wayne Smith in The Australian today is strongly suggesting that RA will water down the Giteau law to make it easier for us to pick players abroad. Clearly that must be a point of discussion for NZRU and RA for any trans Tasman comp.

 

[kiap]

There’s 11 hours difference between South Africa and New Zealand, 7pm in Johannesburg is 6am in Auckland.

The thing is, however, South African games aren't played at 7pm. They're on in the afternoon for fans to attend.

Here are this season's games in South Africa with NZ kick off times. Only 1 of 32 games starts at 6 am NZ time.

The rest kick off at o'dark o'clock in the range 1 am to 4am.

SHA BUL 6:10 Sat 1 Feb
STO HUR 2:05 Sun 2 Feb
LIO RED 2:05 Sun 9 Feb
STO BUL 4:15 Sun 9 Feb
LIO STO 2:05 Sun 16 Feb
STO JAG 2:05 Sun 23 Feb
BUL BLU 4:15 Sun 23 Feb
STO BLU 2:05 Sun 1 Mar
BUL JAG 4:15 Sun 1 Mar
SHA JAG 2:05 Sun 8 Mar
BUL HIG 4:15 Sun 8 Mar
SHA STO 2:05 Sun 15 Mar
SHA CHI 2:05 Sun 22 Mar
LIO CHI 2:05 Sun 29 Mar
STO REB 4:15 Sun 29 Mar
STO WAR 2:05 Sun 5 Apr
LIO SHA 3:15 Sun 5 Apr
SHA WAR 1:05 Sun 12 Apr
BUL LIO 3:15 Sun 12 Apr
LIO SUN 1:05 Sun 19 Apr
STO SHA 3:15 Sun 19 Apr
SHA BRU 1:05 Sun 26 Apr
BUL SUN 3:15 Sun 26 Apr
SHA LIO 1:35 Sun 3 May
BUL BRU 3:45 Sun 3 May
LIO BUL 1:05 Sun 10 May
LIO CRU 1:05 Sun 17 May
BUL SHA 3:15 Sun 17 May
SHA CRU 1:05 Sun 24 May
STO LIO 3:15 Sun 24 May
LIO JAG 1:05 Sun 31 May
BUL STO 3:15 Sun 31 May

 

[Rebels3]

The thing is, however, South African games aren't played at 7pm. They're on in the afternoon for fans to attend.

Here are this season's games in South Africa with NZ kick off times. Only 1 of 32 games starts at 6 am NZ time.

The rest kick off at o'dark o'clock in the range 1 am to 4am.

SHA BUL 6:10 Sat 1 Feb
STO HUR 2:05 Sun 2 Feb
LIO RED 2:05 Sun 9 Feb
STO BUL 4:15 Sun 9 Feb
LIO STO 2:05 Sun 16 Feb
STO JAG 2:05 Sun 23 Feb
BUL BLU 4:15 Sun 23 Feb
STO BLU 2:05 Sun 1 Mar
BUL JAG 4:15 Sun 1 Mar
SHA JAG 2:05 Sun 8 Mar
BUL HIG 4:15 Sun 8 Mar
SHA STO 2:05 Sun 15 Mar
SHA CHI 2:05 Sun 22 Mar
LIO CHI 2:05 Sun 29 Mar
STO REB 4:15 Sun 29 Mar
STO WAR 2:05 Sun 5 Apr
LIO SHA 3:15 Sun 5 Apr
SHA WAR 1:05 Sun 12 Apr
BUL LIO 3:15 Sun 12 Apr
LIO SUN 1:05 Sun 19 Apr
STO SHA 3:15 Sun 19 Apr
SHA BRU 1:05 Sun 26 Apr
BUL SUN 3:15 Sun 26 Apr
SHA LIO 1:35 Sun 3 May
BUL BRU 3:45 Sun 3 May
LIO BUL 1:05 Sun 10 May
LIO CRU 1:05 Sun 17 May
BUL SHA 3:15 Sun 17 May
SHA CRU 1:05 Sun 24 May
STO LIO 3:15 Sun 24 May
LIO JAG 1:05 Sun 31 May
BUL STO 3:15 Sun 31 May

I get the fact that Aus games have little interest in NZ, but I can guarantee that Sky is deriving considerably more advertising revenue from the Aus time slot than the SA ones, purely out of convenience of the consumer. The midnight to 5am slots are shocking and used to run at a loss, it’s why FTA networks now engage in home shopping between these times because it’s easier to give out the space than pay royalties on a show with poor advertising streams.

If anything these times show how little factoring has gone into the NZ markets need to consume the product. If any care truely was considered all SA/NZ games would be on at 7.30 SA time creating breakfast content.

 

[Show-n-go]

Hey look fellas ,I not against it, just saying most I have spoke to in NZ very rarely watch games from Aus as games haven't generally started until 9.45pm and the reason even in Australia they used to move Force home games were played early because there was very little interest in staying up for kick offs after 8.30 or so. I know I very seldom saw any games that kicked off after 8pm, and I a real rugby tragic (though admittedly getting on a bit ) . See games played at night in SA are great for NZ as it is on at breakfast time, which to most is preferable to a game from Aus at 9.30-10pm which isn't finishing to midnight. See although SA not suitable for Aus I think it has to be assumed we have to look at every angle, not just what suits us living in Aus!

I find it really hard to believe that a general footy fan in NZ shirks at the idea of watching footy after 8:30PM but rejoices in watching footy anywhere from 2AM - 6AM in the morning

 

[kiap]

If any care truely was considered all SA/NZ games would be on at 7.30 SA time creating breakfast content.

They could add an extra 6am breakfast game or two, I suppose.

We are talking about two-and-a-half games a season, though. All up. That's merely a blip.

The reality is that South Africa need to serve their home market first. With all due respect to NZ (or Australia, for that matter) the small number of extra foreign viewers added at 6 am kiwi time versus 4 am kiwi time, is not particularly relevant for South Africa. It is the bigger market, after all.

Does England schedule EOYT test matches for 7pm at Twickenham so that kiwis can watch over breakfast? Not really, they do what's best at home. Saffers are in a similar spot.

This is just the reality of playing half a world away.

The point Wayne Smith made about expensive super long haul travel for these games is a good one. These are glorified club matches.

For test matches, sure, it's more justifiable. But for a regular-season pro comp you need more compact timezones. Instead of 11+ hours time difference, something cut back to more like 5 hours.

 

[hoggy]

Part of what i can't understand is the role of SA broadcasters, if the bulk of the broadcast money is provided by the Pay TV provider (Super Sport i think), what is the benefit they get from Super rugby that they couldn't get from investing that money into the Currie Cup or a reformed version of a domestic competition, is it not essentially the same market they're targeting.

Yes in the early 2000's it had appeal but 20 years later, surely the biggest market available to them is in there back garden.

I accept that European money comes into the equation for broadcast rights, but considering how much Super rugby's appeal has diminished lately, what incentive is there to funding a competition which even in there own market will not now have the majority of there own top players, who predominately play in Europe.

Look i have no knowledge of SA, but I would have thought that Super Sport could potentially get more bang for there buck investing domestically.

 

[Dan54]

I find it really hard to believe that a general footy fan in NZ shirks at the idea of watching footy after 8:30PM but rejoices in watching footy anywhere from 2AM - 6AM in the morning

Yep but in NZ it not 8.30 kick off ( that's just me that was saying after 8.30 kick off from Force days and I here in Aus), it generally 9.30-10pm in NZ so they don't finish until midnight, and that's not allowing for games from Perth if Force were playing. I not suggesting it anyone's fault, just a fact of life it seems NZ is great time for Aus viewers but not the reverse. Tell me honestly would you prefer staying up until midnight and watching games or just get up an hour or 2 earlier in morning and watch them while you fresh? To me 9.30-10 is less prefrable to 4-6am . Well like a lot in Qld I tend to rise early anyway as a lot start work etc early to beat the heat. I merely pointing out that although SA may seem not too good for you to many in NZ it is a lot better.

 

[Rebels3]

Those 530 Friday games are amazing while I sit in traffic or on the train on my way home from work.

@hoggy I completely agree with your thoughts on SA. I believe their future is best served internally looking.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I'm interested to see if the supposed British and Irish League has any legs. Because if so I can see the SA and Italians being cut out. Which presents an interesting opportunity as far as I'm concerned. If it does get up the Cheetahs and Kings could be looking to rejoin Super Rugby and the two Italian teams left out in the cold. Why not split Super Rugby into two divisions of 9 teams? Playing individual but concurrently running schedules only joining together in the finals stage with the top four from each qualifying.

Schedule would run for 17 weeks with three weeks of finals. Involving 16 games and one bye for each team. Guaranteed. Winners would play at most 19 games over 20 weeks.

 

[dru]

Part of what i can't understand is the role of SA broadcasters, if the bulk of the broadcast money is provided by the Pay TV provider (Super Sport i think), what is the benefit they get from Super rugby that they couldn't get from investing that money into the Currie Cup or a reformed version of a domestic competition, is it not essentially the same market they're targeting.

Yes in the early 2000's it had appeal but 20 years later, surely the biggest market available to them is in there back garden.

I accept that European money comes into the equation for broadcast rights, but considering how much Super rugby's appeal has diminished lately, what incentive is there to funding a competition which even in there own market will not now have the majority of there own top players, who predominately play in Europe.

Look i have no knowledge of SA, but I would have thought that Super Sport could potentially get more bang for there buck investing domestically.

Aus GDP 1.4T US
RSA GDP 350B US
NZ GDP 200B US

The differences are more stark when you turn it into income per person - NZ not really that far behind Aus, RSA is a different matter. The other thing is that many low income countries rely on an informal economy, for whatever reason RSA isn't considered like that.

Within the wealthier areas of the RSA economy (presumably white focused) rugby coverage is like NZ - saturated. Within the rest of the economy there are huge numbers of people and potential players, but there is little opportunity to commercially grow the product. SARU commercial opportunity to improve is largely into Europe not domestic. Curry Cup does not sell internationally like Super does.

In short RSA is floating on the same sinking ship that Aus is - with the exception that they have a life boat - exposure to Europe.

 

[hoggy]

Thanks dru, then the SA's must be bloody worried this British League doesn't take off, and if European money is all that's keeping Super Rugby afloat, what does that say.

Also the Cheetahs and Kings in Pro 14 aren't exactly successful sporting inclusions, I would have thought then that the SARU would be bending over backwards to make that transition successful, from a distance the Cheetahs & Kings look rather amateur and results are pretty bad.

I agree much of the SA market is poor & the black population there are not traditional rugby supporters and right now with little commercial value, but that is going (hopefully) to change over the next 20/30 years, I could be totally wrong but I would question not embracing that emerging market on the ground floor, because it may not be so easy when they've reached the 3/4 floor.

With all that's going on I just can't see Super rugby lasting until 2026, yet that's what the RA are pretty much signing up for (although all sorts of rumors), what happens say in 2022 if viewers and crowds have not recovered.

 

[Dan54]

The thing is, however, South African games aren't played at 7pm. They're on in the afternoon for fans to attend.

Here are this season's games in South Africa with NZ kick off times. Only 1 of 32 games starts at 6 am NZ time.

The rest kick off at o'dark o'clock in the range 1 am to 4am.

SHA BUL 6:10 Sat 1 Feb
STO HUR 2:05 Sun 2 Feb
LIO RED 2:05 Sun 9 Feb
STO BUL 4:15 Sun 9 Feb
LIO STO 2:05 Sun 16 Feb
STO JAG 2:05 Sun 23 Feb
BUL BLU 4:15 Sun 23 Feb
STO BLU 2:05 Sun 1 Mar
BUL JAG 4:15 Sun 1 Mar
SHA JAG 2:05 Sun 8 Mar
BUL HIG 4:15 Sun 8 Mar
SHA STO 2:05 Sun 15 Mar
SHA CHI 2:05 Sun 22 Mar
LIO CHI 2:05 Sun 29 Mar
STO REB 4:15 Sun 29 Mar
STO WAR 2:05 Sun 5 Apr
LIO SHA 3:15 Sun 5 Apr
SHA WAR 1:05 Sun 12 Apr
BUL LIO 3:15 Sun 12 Apr
LIO SUN 1:05 Sun 19 Apr
STO SHA 3:15 Sun 19 Apr
SHA BRU 1:05 Sun 26 Apr
BUL SUN 3:15 Sun 26 Apr
SHA LIO 1:35 Sun 3 May
BUL BRU 3:45 Sun 3 May
LIO BUL 1:05 Sun 10 May
LIO CRU 1:05 Sun 17 May
BUL SHA 3:15 Sun 17 May
SHA CRU 1:05 Sun 24 May
STO LIO 3:15 Sun 24 May
LIO JAG 1:05 Sun 31 May
BUL STO 3:15 Sun 31 May

Yep and if Aussie games were played in afternoon, it would work out great for NZ, you could have a game on at 4.30-5 followed by NZ games at 7.30, shall we push for that?? Works for me!

 

[kiap]

Yep and if Aussie games were played in afternoon, it would work out great for NZ, you could have a game on at 4.30-5 followed by NZ games at 7.30, shall we push for that?? Works for me!

It really can work. Aus conference games are already on in the afternoon.

Sunwolves—like the Force before them—fill much (but not all) of that slot. Obviously, both will have been booted by mid-2020.

10x as many games at kiwi watchable times in Soup 2020 than from South Africa:

SUN REB Sat 01 Feb 16:45
SUN CHI Sat 15 Feb 16:45
REB SHA Sat 22 Feb 16:45
SUN BRU Sun 08 Mar 17:15
SUN CRU Sat 14 Mar 16:45
BRU WAR Sun 15 Mar 18:05
SUN RED Sun 05 Apr 17:15
BRU JAG Sun 12 Apr 18:05
RED HIG Sun 26 Apr 18:05
SUN STO Sat 16 May 16:45

The rest are on at 21.15 kiwi time. Still watchable times.

Folks are kidding themselves if these games don't get more eyeballs than the 97% of games from the republic which start from 1.05 am to 4.15 am.

I'm sure the Saffa season opener of Shorks v Bulle will pull big TV numbers at 6.10 am as the sole NZ brekkie match this year, tho.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

Those 530 Friday games are amazing while I sit in traffic or on the train on my way home from work.

This x10 million. Instead of a bolt home like the last seed of Thor's cock to catch 4:30 pm kickoffs here on the upper 666th Pitcairns parallel now its 3:30pm and all early Friday matches instantly shot in the face reducing me to scrambling around for full replays all fucken weekend or at least til Sat's matches kick off and some doofus commentator kindly blurts out the fucken score for me.

"Just record the game you dipshit" you might say but I NEVER do that as I'll always do the ol' "i'll just fast forward past the scrum reset, oh and this lineout, oh thats a nothing kick, fast forward"and before you know it you've watched the whole 2 hour thing in 20 minutes and deprived yourself of what little occasion and/or spectacle is still involved with this rapidly emptying-out hospice care unit of a competition.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Yep and if Aussie games were played in afternoon, it would work out great for NZ, you could have a game on at 4.30-5 followed by NZ games at 7.30, shall we push for that?? Works for me!

Dan, are you saying that the NZ games should start at 9.30pm NZ time? Seems that's the only way they would be played here at 7.30pm (or maybe even 10.30 kickoff to get it on in Qld at 7.30?)

 

[Dan54]

Dan, are you saying that the NZ games should start at 9.30pm NZ time? Seems that's the only way they would be played here at 7.30pm (or maybe even 10.30 kickoff to get it on in Qld at 7.30?)

Naa mate I saying if Aus games kicked off at 3pm, that is 5 in NZ and follow that up with 7.30 kick off in NZ, see then everyone be happy, then if Saffas had all 8pm kick offs would be evn better!! Think we should all start a petition for it, then everyone would be over the moon!