Where to for Super Rugby?

[half]

Cough cough cough, puts on steel helmet for protection.

Question without notice to the TT guys, the twiggy guys, the Australian National Domestic competition folk.

My question is why are you so certain about what will happen if what you say is put in place.

Consider the “”” Nobody Really Cares Competition”” put in by Pulver & Flower. Both established within six months and neither despite all the fanfare and promises went within light years of achieving their potential and promise.

I have always maintained we needed between 4 & 5 years to establish a sustainable competition, with broadcasters and sponsors. My thoughts have not changed.

Let me ask, a few questions, has RA produced a flexible discussion paper inviting various stakeholder groups to consider???? Has RA developed a process of fan engagement to build upon???? Has RA developed a broad range of rugby groups i.e official’s refs, lines people etc/ coaches / players / fan groups / key sponsors ????? has RA invited key stakeholder people to discuss various opinions i.e. Papworth, Twiggy, etc ?????

My guess is they have not.

So, consider this, Sydney run its Shute Shield, Brisbane similar, Newcastle / Central Coast, ACT and so on, with a kinda champion of champion series at the end. Use this time to listen develop listen some more. Then develop over two to three years a sustainable model.

Then implement the model.

It's an option - but i think if we fall back into amateurism it'll be decades before we get back out of it.

It's not palatable from my personal perspective either. I occasionally go watch Norths primarily to have a few beers in the sun, but that's it. If it was the only rugby available i'd probably just stop watching rugby.

Only two things.

1] I never said we go back to an amateur competition, these levels will not pay top dollar but neither will they not pay.

2] Australian Rugby's history over decades, has been, to do nothing until they have been forced to as they been about to go under. Then what happens future decisions are rushed almost no consultation with key stakeholder groups. Decisions have been made in haste, based on the economic survival mostly of the administrative levels and as an after through key state and national teams.

Only recently has the idea of a TT or NDC, been even considered and this because of an economic crisis. Again RA like the ARU before hand want someone else to do the heavy lifting.

Back in the 70's when league started to get more influential we did nothing until player like Matthew Ridge an AB fullback went to Manly.

Suddenly panic, and News offered a solution, and from S6 it grew and grew and grew.

The decision to move to a Super Rugby format was made in haste with no long term planning in Australia to grow grass roots park teams, and no one asked key stakeholder groups their opinions.

Decades of club rugby history dis guarded, and turning state teams into club sides, was good.

Today we are faced with an economic crisis, so the very same people who supported Super Rugby to its near death are the ones saying lets do this and that.

Your post like many other posters assumes a precised view of what the reaction will be. That view IMO is bias to what you want to happen rather than a view based on evidence.

Has anyone asks the PI folk in Campbelltown or club rugby folk, parents at weekend matches, sports masters at schools, officials like refs, people that work in canteens etc.

I suggest and I don't mean any disrespect you are engaging in group think, and are caught in "confirmation bias" that is leading you to these opinions.

Sorry I don't mean to attack, and I am not having a go at you personally, I just find the rational of lets do this and this is history repeating itself. We need to develop a structure that works for Australian Rugby and that means extensive consultation with various stakeholder groups. But first RA needs to develop the talking points and create a document that creates and opens up the conversation. Listen and listen some more and then listen some more, ask questions,.

Then set up a sustainable competition.

 

[Derpus]

Only two things.

1] I never said we go back to an amateur competition, these levels will not pay top dollar but neither will they not pay.

2] Australian Rugby's history over decades, has been, to do nothing until they have been forced to as they been about to go under. Then what happens future decisions are rushed almost no consultation with key stakeholder groups. Decisions have been made in haste, based on the economic survival mostly of the administrative levels and as an after through key state and national teams.

Only recently has the idea of a TT or NDC, been even considered and this because of an economic crisis. Again RA like the ARU before hand want someone else to do the heavy lifting.

Back in the 70's when league started to get more influential we did nothing until player like Matthew Ridge an AB fullback went to Manly.

Suddenly panic, and News offered a solution, and from S6 it grew and grew and grew.

The decision to move to a Super Rugby format was made in haste with no long term planning in Australia to grow grass roots park teams, and no one asked key stakeholder groups their opinions.

Decades of club rugby history dis guarded, and turning state teams into club sides, was good.

Today we are faced with an economic crisis, so the very same people who supported Super Rugby to its near death are the ones saying lets do this and that.

Your post like many other posters assumes a precised view of what the reaction will be. That view IMO is bias to what you want to happen rather than a view based on evidence.

Has anyone asks the PI folk in Campbelltown or club rugby folk, parents at weekend matches, sports masters at schools, officials like refs, people that work in canteens etc.

I suggest and I don't mean any disrespect you are engaging in group think, and are caught in "confirmation bias" that is leading you to these opinions.

Sorry I don't mean to attack, and I am not having a go at you personally, I just find the rational of lets do this and this is history repeating itself. We need to develop a structure that works for Australian Rugby and that means extensive consultation with various stakeholder groups. But first RA needs to develop the talking points and create a document that creates and opens up the conversation. Listen and listen some more and then listen some more, ask questions,.

Then set up a sustainable competition.

Of course its my biased opinion. I stated as much in the post.

Are you proposing that club rugby become professional? otherwise i don't see how it is not a reversion to amateurism.

I think it's amusing you think groupthink is an issue in Australian rugby considering how riven it is by vested and competing interests.

Not sure what you mean by confirmation bias.

 

[half]

Confirmation bias is the net today looks at you and brings up similar things i.e. start listening to country music and youtube starts to list lots of country music stuff.

People then start reading articles that support the way they think. Here is the wiki link for confirmation bias.
https://www.google.com/search?q=con.....69i57j0l7.1319j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

IMO with youtube streaming, canteen sales, crowd revenue, sponsors etc these competitions will pay something it won't be nothing.

My key point is we can rush to a decision because we think it makes sense and I can't think of one that has or we can plan it.

I am not saying my solution will make everybody happy. I simply think rushing to a decision makes light years less sense.

 

[Derpus]

I know what it is, i dont see how it applies to what I've said?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Confirmation bias is the net today looks at you and brings up similar things i.e. start listening to country music and youtube starts to list lots of country music stuff.

People then start reading articles that support the way they think. Here is the wiki link for confirmation bias.
https://www.google.com/search?q=confirmation bias&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU802AU802&oq=confirmation bias&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.1319j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

IMO with youtube streaming, canteen sales, crowd revenue, sponsors etc these competitions will pay something it won't be nothing.

My key point is we can rush to a decision because we think it makes sense and I can't think of one that has or we can plan it.

I am not saying my solution will make everybody happy. I simply think rushing to a decision makes light years less sense.

With 3 of those 4 at present if they pay anything it's no where near enough for players to be professional. Even semi-professionalism would be a bridge too far. As for streaming revenue from say YouTube. Even if it saw streams similar to Super Rugby viewing figures it would still fall well short of bringing in anywhere near the income needed.

As for a solution. The simplest would be a Trans-Tasman. But if that's not on the cards leverage the NRC but with the Super Rugby brands, the Force and Fiji. Potentially even Samoa and Tonga or so combined squad of the two.

Club Rugby's opportunity to become a genuine option for professionalism is gone. At least without a complete rethink on how they operate at present. And even if they were to change. Work to solidify and grow particularly junior Rugby in each of their respective districts. Looking to build real and lasting connections between those juniors and the wider district club. Acting as true district clubs and not something completely separate beyond nominal support around age grade reps. It would still take at least 10 years before something resembling low level professional could be achieved.

And frankly, they should be looking to do that now even though they'll never be the top line professional standard the ability to build a lower tier of professionalism that would permit talent to grow and develop wouldn't hurt the game at all. But at present. I like the idea of a broader National Club Championship or some sort of mix of club/regions but as a professional structure it would take a lot of work and resources we just don't have.

 

[eastman]

Sorry I don't mean to attack, and I am not having a go at you personally, I just find the rational of lets do this and this is history repeating itself. We need to develop a structure that works for Australian Rugby and that means extensive consultation with various stakeholder groups. But first RA needs to develop the talking points and create a document that creates and opens up the conversation. Listen and listen some more and then listen some more, ask questions,.



Then set up a sustainable competition.

Consultation is important no doubt.

But I think it can be done in parallel to a professional competition (most likely TT), rather than just putting the professional game on pause for a couple of years until we find the 'optimal model'.

I don't think rugby union has that luxury of time in the Australian environment.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think rugby union has that luxury of time in the Australian environment.

Exactly.

Half talks about consultation to come up with something that everyone can agree with in relation to what was done with the FFA Cup. This was an additional knockout competition for professional players and amateur clubs. There was essentially no reason to rush into it because it wasn't required to keep the game functioning in Australia.

There's no such luxury here. We have professional players that we either need to find a professional competition for or we lose them. If we cease having a professional competition in Australia for multiple years I think that does lasting damage to our ability to produce high quality players in the future. Players who end up becoming professional are making active decisions as teenagers to pursue rugby and they will make very different decisions if it doesn't appear there is a future for them here.

 

[The Honey Badger]

I think people need to accept the reality that the broadcast rights value are going to be slashed, the money on offer for players is going to be drastically less. The most cost effective way to fill out these squads in line with the new budgets will be through promoting club players, not recruiting foreigners. However, there is an absolute limitation to the depth of club playres

Correct, and that is a good thing. Developing home talent

 

[The Honey Badger]

For the want of repeating myself - it's becoming obvious that the way forward is (in no particular order):

Lower the sights, aim for success, focus on timezone, reduce the amount/cost of travel, don't try and fix everybody's problems, slow and steady growth from the grass roots, seek more corporate sponsorship, competition managed by professionals not amateurs, ensure that media coverage is readily accessible and affordable (to as many people as possible).

2nd best post

 

[KOB1987]

2nd best post

Since you quoted it above I liked it again

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Watched first game of Oz Super Rugby tonight and what I learnt and observations:

• Timezone friendly and domestic rivalry makes for awesome rugby - generally positive comments on match forum but one comment on match forum was "but if we were playing NZ side blah blah" - but point was we were not - and with rule changes etc - local rivalry and quality on display - screw it - NZRU wants a trans tasman competition without open borders policy - tell them to get go fly a kite and do our domestic competition as half and others been proved right tonight that domestic competition will work better than some constrained fucked up cross borders competition that does not allow national team representation for playing for any team within that competition. As we saw great rivarly, good standard of rugby (wtf sets that benchmark - as you going to tell me Japan League better than that - please - stop comparing to best teams in the world which is NZ as last time I checked rugby played around the world with far greater support than some piss ant country with a population of 5m people).
• The rule changes were overall awesome for speeding up the game and creating more fan interest - and this was from someone who had not really bothered to spend time analyzing the rule changes!!!
• If you are bitching and moaning about super rugby past model and not giving this domestic competition a chance to watch and engage in (whether foxtel/kayo subscription or going to live game) I think you are missing an opportunity to see a better product (read than some fucked up closed borders cross nation product)....and moreso if you are a rusted on fan whether current or previous - give it a go - as timezone friendly with positive rule changes - and yes half this might just be the future blueprint you have been banging on for the last decade....

 

[qwerty51]

I saw 3 different comments on Twitter alluding to the same thing: If you replaced the current Fox commentators with the NZ ones (or anyone else really) the game would be far more appealing. I've never considered this but I think it's true. We all know Kearns but I think the point is Clarkie has to go as the main caller - he just doesn't lift a game I reckon. I'm not asking for an Andrew Voss equivalent because that would be awful but I think it's part of the reason people find Aus rugby boring.

 

[dru]

I saw 3 different comments on Twitter alluding to the same thing: If you replaced the current Fox commentators with the NZ ones (or anyone else really) the game would be far more appealing. I've never considered this but I think it's true. We all know Kearns but I think the point is Clarkie has to go as the main caller - he just doesn't lift a game I reckon. I'm not asking for an Andrew Voss equivalent because that would be awful but I think it's part of the reason people find Aus rugby boring.

I feel spiteful about Foxtel, a lot. But I don't think Clarke has anything at all to do with our situation.

Kearns certainly does.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I feel spiteful about Foxtel, a lot. But I don't think Clarke has anything at all to do with our situation.

Kearns certainly does.

Come on guys - what a load of crap to suggest commentators dictating or influencing the current situation...PLEASE!!!!

 

[drewprint]

I saw 3 different comments on Twitter alluding to the same thing: If you replaced the current Fox commentators with the NZ ones (or anyone else really) the game would be far more appealing. I've never considered this but I think it's true. We all know Kearns but I think the point is Clarkie has to go as the main caller - he just doesn't lift a game I reckon. I'm not asking for an Andrew Voss equivalent because that would be awful but I think it's part of the reason people find Aus rugby boring.

I’ve said it a few times on here I know, but: Sean Maloney.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Watching the Blues Highlanders game after the Reds Waratahs game. If we're stuck in a domestic comp permanently, we're going to fall further behind. The Aotearoa game was an enormous step up in quality.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Also, the commentary offered by Fox is absolute toilet. They're basically cardboard unless they're whinging about the refereeing or administration of the game. Might as well get Gus fucking Gould on board to spruik the NRL while we're at it.

Why do I even have fucking foxtel?

 

[dru]

Come on guys - what a load of crap to suggest commentators dictating or influencing the current situation.PLEASE!!!!

In my defence, Kearns has been more than a commentator. A lot more.

 

[qwerty51]

Watching the Blues Highlanders game after the Reds Waratahs game. If we're stuck in a domestic comp permanently, we're going to fall further behind. The Aotearoa game was an enormous step up in quality.

I don't agree - at all. This is purely perception. In fact, the Brumbies vs Chiefs and Reds vs Crusaders proved this stuff is just an optic myth.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Watching the Blues Highlanders game after the Reds Waratahs game. If we're stuck in a domestic comp permanently, we're going to fall further behind. The Aotearoa game was an enormous step up in quality.

I was more than happy with what I watched. Was expecting a flogging and really the Tahs should have won it.

It was a great game.

Don't care what was going on in some foreign country southeast of where I come from. Didn't watch it, don't think I am alone