Where to for Super Rugby?

[TOCC]

Does Super Rugby detract from or complement Test Rugby?

 

[southsider]

I think last nights game between the Tahs and rebels showed that we do have the potential to go it alone if the ARU goes down that path. While we obviously don't match it skill wise with the kiwis atm, the product on offer last night was still entertaining and engaging.

In saying this I don't believe our problem lies with a lack of talent pool to match it with SA or NZ, what we lack is a coaching inferstructure which fosters skill acquisition at junior level and professional coaches that can up skill and develop game plans that fit specific teams.

I believe when our next 6-7 top Line wallabies retire, we retain their salaries rather than upgrading the 2nd tier wallabies salaries and we use this money to buy the 5 best coaches money can buy for our super franchises then use the remainder to invest in coaching programs. While we may lose those 6-7 wallabies that we don't upgrade, hopefully these coaches will help develop players already in the system at an excellerated rate while investment in junior coaching/coaching pathways will see us get a net gain within 10 years

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Does Super Rugby detract from or complement Test Rugby?

I think it complements test rugby but detracts from domestic focus (for oz sides as unlike south Africa and New Zealand we have no strong domestic competition beneath super rugby and there lies our problem).

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[Rugbynutter39]

I think last nights game between the Tahs and rebels showed that we do have the potential to go it alone if the ARU goes down that path. While we obviously don't match it skill wise with the kiwis atm, the product on offer last night was still entertaining and engaging.

In saying this I don't believe our problem lies with a lack of talent pool to match it with SA or NZ, what we lack is a coaching inferstructure which fosters skill acquisition at junior level and professional coaches that can up skill and develop game plans that fit specific teams.

I believe when our next 6-7 top Line wallabies retire, we retain their salaries rather than upgrading the 2nd tier wallabies salaries and we use this money to buy the 5 best coaches money can buy for our super franchises then use the remainder to invest in coaching programs. While we may lose those 6-7 wallabies that we don't upgrade, hopefully these coaches will help develop players already in the system at an excellerated rate while investment in junior coaching/coaching pathways will see us get a net gain within 10 years

I would agree but might add maybe tahs and rebels if either played against nz sides like they did last night would have got belted given how ahead nz are but point is was highly entertaining game with decent skills on show. Yes we need to develop our skills but no we don't need less teams to help us develop but create an internal domestic competition that allows teams to take overseas players (which given current trend is pinching kiwis in any case).

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[southsider]

I would agree but might add maybe tahs and rebels if either played against nz sides like they did last night would have got belted given how ahead nz are but point is was highly entertaining game with decent skills on show. Yes we need to develop our skills but no we don't need less teams to help us develop but create an internal domestic competition that allows teams to take overseas players (which given current trend is pinching kiwis in any case).

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For the record I'm in favour of a trans Tasman comp with Japan and possibly 1 island based team

 

[swingpass]

You know Omar, that is probably the best idea for having 5 teams in Australia, and could be done like Ireland and say ok only 1-2 players from any position say if Tahs and Reds each bought a 9, noone else could etc etc, so there still some kind of pathway for Aussie players. League and Soccer allow overseas players, and really fans don't care where they come from!!

Dan i said as much earlier on. the Rebels owner, Cox, laments his inability to get the best players for his team because of restrictions imposed by the ARU. How many locals play for Real Madrid, or Barcelona, or Tottenham, or Wsahington Redskins, or Boston Celtics etc, etc. If you have a good product people (TV, supporters,sponsors) will but it. Currently most of the product is crap. I dont care if The Rebels are a team of Victorians, or other Australian states, or from Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, if they play attractive Rugby and are winning ill go and watch and buy my membership.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

And that Dan54 is how we could go it alone if we are prepared to be innovative and brave and do something different to what done in the past or be a follower for proven models adopted in other codes i.e Have 5 teams but allow less restrictions on international players etc.

As we create a better product we can generate better market share..we create crap product we don't.

But innovation needs to be across the board with the domestic product to be successful. E.g. NRC style points system or whatever it is that can make it more appealing to win fans in the incredibly competitive battle amongst various football codes in Oz then so be it as long as basics of rugby retained (re: read scrum, lineout etc).

The problem is we have cared too much about our international product (read the Wallabies) for too long at the expense of our domestic product. Only if this changes can we move forward. And yes outside of the large ex pat kiwi's living in Oz most Oz sport fans want to see Oz teams playing Oz teams and not kiwi teams against kiwi team or SAFA teams against SAFA teams..

If we were to go it alone we should take the variations from the NRC plus potentially one or two more. I think that would provide a rather compelling product with the addition of a few new teams. Notably, the two Countrys' and Fiji.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I believe when our next 6-7 top Line wallabies retire, we retain their salaries rather than upgrading the 2nd tier wallabies salaries and we use this money to buy the 5 best coaches money can buy for our super franchises then use the remainder to invest in coaching programs. While we may lose those 6-7 wallabies that we don't upgrade, hopefully these coaches will help develop players already in the system at an excellerated rate while investment in junior coaching/coaching pathways will see us get a net gain within 10 years

The ARU and RUPA have a collective bargaining agreement whereby a fixed percentage of all "player generated revenue" must be spent on payments to players (it's around 30% IIRC)

So presumably they're only spending that amount (and they were exceeding it in the JON era) then they simply can't follow your proposal

 

[Strewthcobber]

Dan i said as much earlier on. the Rebels owner, Cox, laments his inability to get the best players for his team because of restrictions imposed by the ARU. How many locals play for Real Madrid, or Barcelona, or Tottenham, or Wsahington Redskins, or Boston Celtics etc, etc. If you have a good product people (TV, supporters,sponsors) will but it. Currently most of the product is crap. I dont care if The Rebels are a team of Victorians, or other Australian states, or from Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, if they play attractive Rugby and are winning ill go and watch and buy my membership.

This presumes that in a global market place for players, we can recruit significantly better cattle under a salary cap that's significantly less than the teams we would be competing with for players

 

[swingpass]

This presumes that in a global market place for players, we can recruit significantly better cattle under a salary cap that's significantly less than the teams we would be competing with for players

well its a viscous circle, poor income leads to insufficient salary cap, means the product (players) goes elsewhere, followed by the money (TV, sponsors,gate), leading to a reduction on money available for the product, etc, etc. the trend somehow has to be reversed. how ? i'm not sure

 

[southsider]

The ARU and RUPA have a collective bargaining agreement whereby a fixed percentage of all "player generated revenue" must be spent on payments to players (it's around 30% IIRC)

So presumably they're only spending that amount (and they were exceeding it in the JON era) then they simply can't follow your proposal

they wouldn't follow it regardless haha but I have to be honest, the money side of business sometimes goes over my head, I'm quite ignorant of aspects such as collective bargaining agreements

 

[Rugbynutter39]

WCR maybe to bring on board clubs we could have a promotion / relegation system where bottom team gets relegated and based on a national club championship playoff whoever wins that gets promoted. And like English football teams who get jettisoned on relegation get a one off payment to cover transition. It does means it would be pretty ugly for side who got relegated and not sure this would work but worth some thought on how to maybe get some other innovative links to next tier below.

More I think about it not sure this could work....or could it?

 

[chibimatty]

If we were to go it alone we should take the variations from the NRC plus potentially one or two more. I think that would provide a rather compelling product with the addition of a few new teams. Notably, the two Countrys' and Fiji.

Would you consider including a few of the top placed SS and QPR clubs in this competition to represent Brisbane and Sydney instead of composite sides? Every season it could change depending on who qualifies. Could that be workable?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Would you consider including a few of the top placed SS and QPR clubs in this competition to represent Brisbane and Sydney instead of composite sides? Every season it could change depending on who qualifies. Could that be workable?

This also answers Rugbynutters question as well.

I tend to think that would be a bit messy in many respects. I can envision many clubs eating themselves trying to compete for the limited spots. I think it would be better for all concerned to go with more traditional structures mixed with new teams as it evolves.

That's why I suggested the inclusion of the two Country teams. They are traditional. Both the Reds and Tahs could be easily rebranded as Brisbane and Sydney respectively to tap into those traditional rivalries. If you want to add new teams then you can lok to add the likes of the Rams etc. easily enough.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

More I think of another analogy the more I realise how stupid how current strategy is to put all professional rugby into Super Rugby for Australia.

As Japan with its own domestic Top League professional rugby competition manages that quite well and Japan say compared to England is obviously not as strong rugby superpower. But lets say decision was made to merge the English Aviva premiership with the Japan Top League to create one competition, so that the only professional teams for Japan are now in this new merged competition (much like Oz position with Super Rugby).

Now probably more than likely that would create an imbalance as English teams would be stronger and lets say they decided okay we need to cut number of teams back to 12 and say that included only 2 Japanese sides as they are less strong in rugby than England. Would that make sense for Japan! No. Does it make sense for Australia to pin the number of professional teams it has based on being merged with a stronger rugby nation for its only professional competition. No.

Screw it we need to establish a national professional domestic competition and needed to do so a decade ago (okay we may have to make allowances, like it might be semi professional and may need to have to remove restrictions on overseas players being recruited for sides but surely per the above illustration this has to be in our long term best interest).

Screw just relying on super rugby as only way we can watch professional rugby teams play rugby in Oz....I am over it and want a domestic competition or something with greater domestic focus. NZ may want 5 teams compared to our 4 but that does nothing to help rugby in our country (and lots to only cement NZ's position at the top of the tree) so personally I feel they can go and get rooted.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think you are right WCR as too destabilising to have promotion / relegation system for a fledgling competition trying to establish itself and could as you say create some unsavoury dynamics.

 

[half]

Nutter glad you have turned from the dark side and hopefully the force will be with us and we can "return control of our destiny"

 

[Dan54]

Screw just relying on super rugby as only way we can watch professional rugby teams play rugby in Oz..I am over it and want a domestic competition or something with greater domestic focus. NZ may want 5 teams compared to our 4 but that does nothing to help rugby in our country (and lots to only cement NZ's position at the top of the tree) so personally I feel they can go and get rooted.

I think you will find NZ really want Aus to have 5 teams RN, just competitive ones! A dream situation for them would be 5 NZ, 5 Aus and perhap 3 SA teams,and probably a Asian team!! Not saying anyone would suggest it, or I not even suggesting it, but would make easy draw with a lot less travel etc!!

Remember that is in a fantasy world, probably SA's would be 6 SA teams 3 NZ teams , 2 Aus teams, so everyone probably has ideal scenarios.

 

[Parse]

Remember that is in a fantasy world, probably SA's would be 6 SA teams 3 NZ teams , 2 Aus teams, so everyone probably has ideal scenarios.

I think SA would prefer 8 SA teams, 5 NZ teams, 2 Argie teams and 5 European teams.

 

[lou75]

The time zones rule the competition players and we should be looking at longitudinal teams not latitudinal teams with five in Aust and five in NZ, two from Asia and all teams play h and a against each other for the duration of the comp, so 22 rounds, we play during the test windows and teams that have players out have players out, that should even the playing field for a week or two for the other teams.