Where to for Super Rugby?

[sunnyboys]

The third hand news i'm hearing is that none of the unions that make up SANZAAR have shown up with anything more than status quo or changing to 'round robin'. However round robin reduces content overall, reduces local content for each union, increases travel, creates larger periods for teams to be away from fans and local time zones. and some members aren't happy with that option at all and why would they be.

meanwhile journalists highlighting the obvious issues with super rugby and the falling crowds and viewer numbers are receiving rather abrupt messages from organising bodies - sending a clear message they aren't impressed with negative coverage.

None of this will be pleasant reading to many Oz fans who know major change is required

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^^^ it does rather seem like no one's got any horses left to trade, doesn't it. If SARU gives ground on travel the SA franchises (& likely the players ass'n) will revolt, if RA gives ground on local derbies the Aus franchises will revolt, & if NZR can't get a reduction in local derbies the NZ franchises & almost certainly the players ass'n will revolt. Meanwhile Argentina & Japan I think are still just happy to have a seat at the table but that won't last forever, sooner or later their travel burden will become an issue.

 

[sunnyboys]

^^^^ spot on. Once this dawns on them, hopefully someone amongst them will start getting a bit imaginative

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^^ yeah, the old saying that a donkey is a horse designed by a committee was never truer. Maybe it's time for some kind of Independent Commission (not sure how you'd achieve that) & some sports consultants to be brought in. Might as well expect turkeys to vote for an early Christmas

 

[Dan54]

So what exactly are we suggesting for a comp, and who is going to pay for it? I know there seems to be a bit of discontent, but we actually need an alternative, with a way to pay for it.
Unfortunately there are no fairies out here willing to hand over the required $s to fund an alternative comp are there? Ok some may think Twiggy may throw in some money, but how much , and for how long, I really don't think I would hang my hat on that horse!
We could try and get some Asian teams in, Island teams would require someone to pay their bills.
From what I understand no FTA channels in Aus are really fighting to get RU , I maybe wrong, so whatever comp there is has to attract enough $s to pay for all the players , coaches etc, which I imagine could cost a few bucks. We know the NRC costs RA a fair bit to run so I imagine as Aus wide comp ain't going to do it. is there enough interest in Aus rugby from europe etc to sell tv rights there? I know NZ NPC is seen over there , but I don't think pays a hell of a lot for the privilege.
I genuinely would like to know if even we here who don't have to make the sums add up, can come up with anything much improved on what is now offered. I actually haven't seen an idea that is sensible that is agreed on by more than half a dozen posters on here which would indicate that no matter what is decided will be derided as much!

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^ damned if I know, Dan, but I'm beginning to think that the people saying we have to think in terms of time zones not hemispheres might be onto something. Like I say I'm damned if I know where that takes us but maybe that's what the sports consultants could put at the top of their otherwise blank piece of paper.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So what exactly are we suggesting for a comp, and who is going to pay for it? I know there seems to be a bit of discontent, but we actually need an alternative, with a way to pay for it.
Unfortunately there are no fairies out here willing to hand over the required $s to fund an alternative comp are there? Ok some may think Twiggy may throw in some money, but how much , and for how long, I really don't think I would hang my hat on that horse!
We could try and get some Asian teams in, Island teams would require someone to pay their bills.
From what I understand no FTA channels in Aus are really fighting to get RU , I maybe wrong, so whatever comp there is has to attract enough $s to pay for all the players , coaches etc, which I imagine could cost a few bucks. We know the NRC costs RA a fair bit to run so I imagine as Aus wide comp ain't going to do it. is there enough interest in Aus rugby from europe etc to sell tv rights there? I know NZ NPC is seen over there , but I don't think pays a hell of a lot for the privilege.
I genuinely would like to know if even we here who don't have to make the sums add up, can come up with anything much improved on what is now offered. I actually haven't seen an idea that is sensible that is agreed on by more than half a dozen posters on here which would indicate that no matter what is decided will be derided as much!

The NRC is cost neutral. The money Foxtel pays to show it covers its costs.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

^^^^ damned if I know, Dan, but I'm beginning to think that the people saying we have to think in terms of time zones not hemispheres might be onto something. Like I say I'm damned if I know where that takes us but maybe that's what the sports consultants could put at the top of their otherwise blank piece of paper.

The timezone issue is part of the appeal of a AP based Super Rugby or the IPRC. There's unfortunately a level of disconnect within each market that needs to be addressed and moving more toward time zones friendly competition should help alleviate that.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^ the downside being that if the Sunwolves struggle v NZ & Aus opposition, how are the AP Dragons or Fiji/ Samoa/ Tonga Residents teams (I just can't see any of those being able to lure more than maybe two or three players back from Europe) gunna go? Initially at least I'd say flogged by 60+ on a weekly basis.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

^^^^^^ the downside being that if the Sunwolves struggle v NZ & Aus opposition, how are the AP Dragons or Fiji/ Samoa/ Tonga Residents teams (I just can't see any of those being able to lure more than maybe two or three players back from Europe) gunna go? Initially at least I'd say flogged by 60+ on a weekly basis.

No one's pretending it would be as simple as just blonking teams here and there.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The NRC is cost neutral. The money Foxtel pays to show it covers its costs.

It covers the ARUs costs for travel and running the comp

Doesn't cover most of the real costs - the player and staff salaries etc which are subsidised by Super Rugby and downwards from the Wallabies

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[kiap]

^^^^ damned if I know, Dan, but I'm beginning to think that the people saying we have to think in terms of time zones not hemispheres might be onto something.

Yeah, am one of those.

It makes sense to have (the vast majority of) games within a limited span of time zones.

A small window of opportunity for far-flung time zones might be left open but it needs to be done differently to now.

Like I say I'm damned if I know where that takes us but maybe that's what the sports consultants could put at the top of their otherwise blank piece of paper.

Stuff the consultants. This a rugby forum, it's what we're here for.

So this bit here: “if NZR can't get a reduction in local derbies the NZ franchises & almost certainly the players ass'n will revolt”…

It is suggested that these NZ derbies are problematic because the intensity is too high for a club competition, i.e. near test level … (but I suppose the intensity can't be too low either, such as playing more sides like the Moondogs).

So let's get something on that blank piece of paper …

• Would you say that NZ teams want fewer high intensity games and more medium intensity games – against sides of the standard of, say, the Waratahs and Lions?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^ I'm assuming the data being quoted is accurate 'cos it feels like it is, but according to some bloke(s) who've looked into it the injury rate for NZ players is 40% higher v NZ opposition than non-NZ opposition & they miss ~33% more game time. Study was over at least the last 2-3 years so it's not just some freak injuries that've happened this year.

So to answer your actual question, I'd say probably yes.

 

[kiap]

^^^^^^ I'm assuming the data being quoted is accurate 'cos it feels like it is, but according to some bloke(s) who've looked into it the injury rate for NZ players is 40% higher v NZ opposition than non-NZ opposition & they miss ~33% more game time. Study was over at least the last 2-3 years so it's not just some freak injuries that've happened this year.

Be interesting to see that study. But, anecdotally, those games often do seem full-on.

So to answer your actual question, I'd say probably yes.

Yep, fair enough. Dropping the standard a bit is not always bad!

• From my own view, I'm happy for NZ to decide however many (more or less) derbies they play …so long as NZ are not trying to dictate their way regarding local derbies other Sanzaar members play.

• I think one issue in Australia is not so much about derbies themselves, per se, but a need to maximise regular, consistent content in prime viewing time. Swapping in more overseas matches reduces that.

• And it's already been mentioned about South African travel schedules.

Hmmm. There's got to be a better way of accommodating some of these disparate concerns …

 

[Strewthcobber]

Yeah, the more 7/8pm Friday and Saturday night games the better.

If you aren't in a pretty small timezone it gets really hard to schedule them

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[hoggy]

The game can't survive in Australia forever expecting someone else to pay for it. Pick a new comp but who pays for it ignores the reality the game here is living on a credit card.

The biggest market that will ever be available to Australian rugby is Australia. But at some stage we have to face up to the reality that pot of gold is not just going to magically appear.

Rugby will never grow in this country when we are forever choosing short term money grabs to maintain a lifestyle that we cannot sustain.

The argument that we need Super rugby for the game to survive is worshiping a false god that will forever stop you from growing the game domestically to the point that one day you aren't a slave to that same paymaster.

 

[half]

Hoggy

Nail head, issue is no one at either RA or state union leadership has the ability to do anything other than hold out their hand.

No ones how to build and develop a national domestic competition.

 

[Dan54]

Hoggy

Nail head, issue is no one at either RA or state union leadership has the ability to do anything other than hold out their hand.

No ones how to build and develop a national domestic competition.

You probably right Hoggy, I more think the problem is noone knows how to pay for a domestic comp. I really do think RA would love nothing more than having someone to pay them enough money so that we could have an Aus comp, but noone is going to do that in forseeable future, and I doubt whether many on here would actually get to carried away watching it!

 

[Dan54]

Yeah, the more 7/8pm Friday and Saturday night games the better.

If you aren't in a pretty small timezone it gets really hard to schedule them

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It a bit hard to have too many 7/8pm friday night games with 4-5 teams Streth, unless Aus conferences get to play all their games at home! Perhaps that is the answer, get Tahs/Reds/Rebels/Brumbies to just play each other every week, all games at appropiate time , and Aus teams winning. Problem solved!

 

[kiap]

RA would love nothing more than having someone to pay them enough money so that we could have an Aus comp

Someone already does pay for an Australian comp. Guess who?

First and foremost it's the Wallabies; that's the RA's paycheck … and by comp, I'm not referring to the NRC because I'm afraid it's worse than that: it's the Aus supe conference.

The sad truth is that, along with the rest of Supe, it's a dog of a comp. Dire scheduling and chopped up to f*ck with round-the-world breaks in transmission which no one watches. Supe has to be cross-subsidised throughout Sanzaar. It's a failed loss-leader.

Perhaps that is the answer, get Tahs/Reds/Rebels/Brumbies to just play each other every week, all games at appropiate time , and Aus teams winning. Problem solved!

Brilliant, Dan. Because that's half of a workable answer. Closed conference, with additional teams included, but Australian controlled. Broadcast bundled, where suitable, with the rest of Sanzaar product. There's the Aus comp.

The other half-answer would be a streamlined continental comp. Virtually stripped of derbies. Call it Supe if you want but that's a different animal.

This type of model will still need to be cross-subsidised by test rugby, and that still means everywhere. But it cuts down the gross failure of Super, which is close to terminal.