Where to for Super Rugby?

[WorkingClassRugger]

I actually hope they are looking at USA, but I suspect you will find that is a plan for the future ie 10years or so, or should they not plan for future? If we don't show interest in American money and dollars sure as shit someone else will, and then everyone can say shit why didn't we get on that gravy train? I really can't even begin to see how some of you think, because most of the people who screamed at ARU for dropping the Force etc, said you can't get a sport better by shrinking seem to be saying they want a Aus only comp (um that is really shrinking), and don't think Sanzaar should be looking at expanding to USA eventually!

Most people calling for a domestic competition are talking more about one that fits in better with our time zones than having to exclusively be based in Australia. That doesn't necessarily mean contraction. Just re-orientation.

In regards to the US. MLR has launched and has growth plans already mapped out which do not include SANZAAR. I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that much like when the Pro 14 were making overtures, most American Rugby people are not interested in the foreign league model. They want to develop their own structures first and foremost. The American dream (at least in terms of the mainland) has well and truly shot through.

MLR will be a 10 team competition next season and likely 12 in 2020. Each team as part of their buy in process have had to prove they could continue operations for 5 seasons (notwithstanding potential sale of individual licences) and there are some very interesting names of interested parties looking to invest that I am not at liberty to discuss.

 

[Omar Comin']

I actually hope they are looking at USA, but I suspect you will find that is a plan for the future ie 10years or so, or should they not plan for future? If we don't show interest in American money and dollars sure as shit someone else will, and then everyone can say shit why didn't we get on that gravy train? I really can't even begin to see how some of you think, because most of the people who screamed at ARU for dropping the Force etc, said you can't get a sport better by shrinking seem to be saying they want a Aus only comp (um that is really shrinking), and don't think Sanzaar should be looking at expanding to USA eventually!

I'm all for integrating the US and Canada into SANZAAR competitions, I just don't think it should be in a long form international sports league ala Super Rugby is now. Involve them at test level and in a shorter champions league format for sure.

But the US has already started their own professional league, currently with 7 teams, and by next season it'll be at least 9 or 10. In 5 years it will probably grow to something like 14 or 16 teams, spread across the country. The US has a lot of potential markets for teams and rugby will grow quicker there by having that reach, not by concentrating their talent into 1-5 franchises that compete with teams halfway across the world every week. If they were in Super Rugby they would be limited to just a few teams because the competitive and money requirements would be so much higher. And the locations of those teams would also be limited to those areas with direct flights to Australia, NZ or South Africa.

Lack of reach is a problem Super Rugby gives us too. Because of the level of competition we struggle to be competitive with even 4 teams. And thus rugby has so much less reach than the sports it competes with in Australia.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I'm all for integrating the US and Canada into SANZAAR competitions, I just don't think it should be in a long form international sports league ala Super Rugby is now. Involve them at test level and in a shorter champions league format for sure.

But the US has already started their own professional league, currently with 7 teams, and by next season it'll be at least 9 or 10. In 5 years it will probably grow to something like 14 or 16 teams, spread across the country. The US has a lot of potential markets for teams and rugby will grow quicker there by having that reach, not by concentrating their talent into 1-5 franchises that compete with teams halfway across the world every week. If they were in Super Rugby they would be limited to just a few teams because the competitive and money requirements would be so much higher. And the locations of those teams would also be limited to those areas with direct flights to Australia, NZ or South Africa.

Lack of reach is a problem Super Rugby gives us too. Because of the level of competition we struggle to be competitive with even 4 teams. And thus rugby has so much less reach than the sports it competes with in Australia.

MLR will be a 16 team league in five years from just the current interested parties at present. New York and Dallas are confirmed for next season and it's expected Ontario will be soon after the season ends. There's even still the chance Chicago will be ready for next season. But at the moment it's ten.

The only way the Americas on particular North America is going to be integrated into SANZAAR is at the test level. Which if I'm being honest is the best path anyway.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

An option for SANZAAR that no one is looking at is the new South American league set for 2019/2020. Depending on the overall sustainability of the number of teams in that league (it current looks set to launch with 10) it could be a source of another conference.

 

[Proud Pig]

You need to think of SANZAAR as a business model. You have a number of companies all working under the same corporate banner. They are like any other international business which has to address the local challenges of each environment in which they wish to operate. The problem is the issues facing each of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are very different so trying to formulate a one size fits all solution is just not feasible.
Australia is a facing a loss of interest in the game across the country as there are more popular products out there.
South Africa has the issue of content and in particular timing of that content, neither the Australian or in particular the New Zealand timezones are in any way conducive to the SA market. SA has a huge demand for content but the offering is not suitable.
New Zealand while having a strong competition and support base do not have the population to maximise revenues.

 

[Rebels3]

You need to think of SANZAAR as a business model. You have a number of companies all working under the same corporate banner. They are like any other international business which has to address the local challenges of each environment in which they wish to operate. The problem is the issues facing each of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are very different so trying to formulate a one size fits all solution is just not feasible.
Australia is a facing a loss of interest in the game across the country as there are more popular products out there.
South Africa has the issue of content and in particular timing of that content, neither the Australian or in particular the New Zealand timezones are in any way conducive to the SA market. SA has a huge demand for content but the offering is not suitable.
New Zealand while having a strong competition and support base do not have the population to maximise revenues.

South Africa's biggest problem is political and the fact that the economy is a shambles and getting worse. They actually out of all 3 major partners have the most favorable times for content, with games on in at 7.30pm in Sydney been on at 11.30am in South Africa and 7.30 Kiwi games at 9.30am in SA. Still not ideal but considerably better than what Aus and NZ put up with, it does make commercialising the game a lot easier. Friday night Aus and NZ games during working hours is the biggest problem for content

 

[Rebels3]

An option for SANZAAR that no one is looking at is the new South American league set for 2019/2020. Depending on the overall sustainability of the number of teams in that league (it current looks set to launch with 10) it could be a source of another conference.

I wonder if the big plan might be to have the South American and MLR competitions acting almost as an NRC/Mitre 10/Currie Cup style feeder competition to say 2/3 South American franchises (including Jaguares) and 2/3 North American franchises.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I wonder if the big plan might be to have the South American and MLR competitions acting almost as an NRC/Mitre 10/Currie Cup style feeder competition to say 2/3 South American franchises (including Jaguares) and 2/3 North American franchises.

Short answer. No. At least not for those involved in the two Americas based ventures. Perhaps those involved in this planning stage for SANZAAR might like to think that's how it will work out but that only suggests that they haven't been talking to those on the continent at all.

MLR has every intent on developing into a premier T1 league that's for certain. The Liga Sul-Americana de Rugby (LSR) which is the current working title might be a little more open to that option depending on whether there is any quantifiable financial benefit but they want to focus on providing opportunities for their players to train in professional environments and improve their national set ups and the Americas Rugby Championship.

 

[Dan54]

I would like to add from what I have read any thoughts of USA coming into any comp is looking at 2030 or something, so I imaginr USA will have leagues up and running well before then, and perhaps there is something to look at. I not saying it going to happen, more that I think Sanzaar is correct in having a peek at them!

 

[Braveheart81]

It also needs to be remembered that the thing that generates the bulk of the revenue for SANZAAR and the member countries is the Rugby Championship.

It is important that Super Rugby evolves into something more sustainable and it needs to be strongly considered whether that brand is terminal and needs to be totally reinvented (maybe an Aus/NZ & SA/Americas comp concluding in a Champions League style finals is a workable future model).

I don't think it is reasonable to assume that Australia is necessarily in the bargaining position that they could completely withdraw from the franchise based component and keep the Rugby Championship without significant financial punishment.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It also needs to be remembered that the thing that generates the bulk of the revenue for SANZAAR and the member countries is the Rugby Championship.

It is important that Super Rugby evolves into something more sustainable and it needs to be strongly considered whether that brand is terminal and needs to be totally reinvented (maybe an Aus/NZ & SA/Americas comp concluding in a Champions League style finals is a workable future model).

I don't think it is reasonable to assume that Australia is necessarily in the bargaining position that they could completely withdraw from the franchise based component and keep the Rugby Championship without significant financial punishment.

Another option could be to split the competition into two divisions. An Asia-Pacific and an Atlantic division.

 

[Braveheart81]

Another option could be to split the competition into two divisions. An Asia-Pacific and an Atlantic division.

That's essentially what I meant although I would let those comps come to a reasonable conclusion before playing the top few teams against each other.

I.e. you work out who wins each of them, not just conclude them as qualifiers for the finals.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

That's essentially what I meant although I would let those comps come to a reasonable conclusion before playing the top few teams against each other.

I.e. you work out who wins each of them, not just conclude them as qualifiers for the finals.

Absolutely. Have separate divisional finals and Champions. The champions from each play one another in the overall Championship game a fortnight after to determine the Super Rugby Champion. Final hosted on a rotational basis between divisions.

It's actually the model I suggested on another forum about how you could link the Pro 14 up with Super Rugby.

 

[Quick Hands]

This is what you get when you hide yourself on a US media company with no one having any real power to challenge the decision makers.

Its just gets worse each year.

Scroll down we are number number 18 on page five.

https://www.ausport.gov.au/__data/a...83/AusPlay_focus_Children_Participation_2.pdf

Unfortunately this is hardly surprising.

 

[Quick Hands]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...in-secret-strategy-paper-20180502-p4zcx8.html

Well sadly the game really is fucked

They key point there is that a trans-Tasman option is basically not an option.

We either strike out on our own or keep doing what we're doing.

 

[kiap]

SANZAAR are looking to boost the Super Rugby competition in the future by adding another conference of US teams.

Seta Tamanivalu had a superb assist for the Crusaders.
Source: Photosport
Fairfax is reporting, today, that they have obtained a strategy paper from SANZAAR, revealing Super Rugby expansion is still in the works, even after a detrimental two-year experiment of an 18-team format which was "confusing, lacked integrity and was ultimately not supported by fans, stakeholders and commercial partners".

 

[Quick Hands]

Yep.

1. We have a surprisingly cogent way forward from the Saffers. The back door to Europe now has a sign on the entry and neon lights at night time. But they stick, luke warm, with the Kiwis hoping something is pulled off. They want their piece of the motza should it come.

2. Kiwi management has a clear and cogent strategy for their 2nd tier rugby. They are at the roullette wheel with determination putting ALL of SANZAAR's resource onto Black 6. If it comes off it will be a motza! Questions as to whether it is a better strategy than Red 4 are left unanswered. <Bet against black? You'd have to be a lunatic!> And no-one, certainly not Australia can see past the roulette wheel to the real world waiting.

3. Aus the little boy pointing at his big brother called "Kiwi" and pipes up, "I'll have what he's having!" (Shush Bro, just a sip while no-one's looking.)

You couldn't make it up. Thank God for the Twig and Premier Rugby.

Don't underestimate (as many do) the strength of the spiritual and historic bonds between NZ rugby and SA rugby. It is THE rivalry in southern hemisphere rugby (certainly in both of their minds). In both cases their natural instinct is to bond together and play each other as often as possible.

As even the article posted above by hoggy acknowledges, a trans-Tasman competition is highly unlikely at best. Both the NZRU and the SARU have said time and again that they want to play each other on a regular basis. A trans-Tasman competition can't exist in that circumstance.

 

[Quick Hands]

SANZAAR jumped the shark some years ago.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

They key point there is that a trans-Tasman option is basically not an option.

We either strike out on our own or keep doing what we're doing.

Or link up with the IPRC concept and go that route. Start with our 5 plus a team from Japan, Hong Kong and potentially either Singapore or Malaysia and build from there.

 

[Quick Hands]

Or link up with the IPRC concept and go that route. Start with our 5 plus a team from Japan, Hong Kong and potentially either Singapore or Malaysia and build from there.

Personally, I'd advocate a 6 team domestic competition involving Waratahs, Red, Brumbies, Rebels, Force and a combined PI team. The PI team to play its home games in western Sydney - the new Parramatta Stadium for example or Penrith Park or Cambelltown Stadium.

Three games every weekend, Friday 7.30pm, Saturday 7.30pm and Sunday 4pm. Full home and away - 10 weeks. 2 week finals 1 v 4, 2 v 3 with the 2 winners playing in the grand final.