Where to for Super Rugby?

[The torpedo]

^^^^^^ Significant imo that Paul's story contains no quotes, not even of the "requested anonymity" kind, the reason being even he knows he can't ptetend that anyone of consequence in NZ rugby (let alone NZ Rugby) is thinking anything of the sort. I have some pretty decent behind the scenrs sources & trust me, no one wants Australian rugby to go under & not many want to see RA fold. As I've said many times before, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how much goodwill exists.

RedsHappy has also repeatedly stated that NZ has interests in keeping RA alive

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^ true that. Look, I think I understand where you're coming from & in your (as in Australia's) position I'd probably be in the burn & rebuild camp as well. All I'm saying is don't fall into the trap of thinking everyone wants you (again, as in Australian rugby if not necessarily Rugby Australia) to remain in the state you currently are.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^^^^ true that. Look, I think I understand where you're coming from & in your (as in Australia's) position I'd probably be in the burn & rebuild camp as well. All I'm saying is don't fall into the trap of thinking everyone wants you (again, as in Australian rugby if not necessarily Rugby Australia) to remain in the state you currently are.

It could well be argued that the only way for rugby in Australia to prosper into the future is for Rugby Australia to collapse.

Echoing dru's most recent post, super rugby has outlived its usefulness in the Australian context.

 

[charlesalan]

^^ I don't agree that Super Rugby has outlived its usefulness. The administrators of the union as a whole have fuc&ked up the business model by downsizing and reducing grass roots entry. The concept of playing across Aussie, NZ and SA teams is terrific, but not one Aussie franchise seems to know how to make money out of their licence.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

It could well be argued that the only way for rugby in Australia to prosper into the future is for Rugby Australia to collapse.

There's certainly a school of thought within NZR that feels that wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen, but at this point they're very much in the minority & it would take something fairly dramatic (like RA or a franchise other than the Rebels becoming insolvent) to alter that.

EDIT: I'd like to add that maybe NZR didn't take Pulver's warnings as to just how perilous ARU's financial position was seriously enough soon enough. I get the feeling there was an element of "yeah, he's pleading poverty to get a bigger slice of the pie" when really he was just saying "look here, guys, we're pretty much broke" & "we" just didn't/ couldn't get it.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

One more tangential post & I'll stfu.....

Re: the "other than the Rebels" comment above, there's a very real feeling over here that if RA goes under due to their at best questionable part in the whole Force v Rebs debacle (& the fact they did the only thing they could legally have done notwithstanding) that's RA's problem & theirs alone whereas just about any other scenario is their problem but one where NZ could & should render some assistance.

 

[charlesalan]

There's certainly a school of thought within NZR that feels that wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen, but at this point they're very much in the minority & it would take something fairly dramatic (like RA or a franchise other than the Rebels becoming insolvent) to alter that.

EDIT: I'd like to add that maybe NZR didn't take Pulver's warnings as to just how perilous ARU's financial position was seriously enough soon enough. I get the feeling there was an element of "yeah, he's pleading poverty to get a bigger slice of the pie" when really he was just saying "look here, guys, we're pretty much broke" & "we" just didn't/ couldn't get it.

Pulver was in over his depth when he agreed to sell the Melbourne Rebels to Andrew Cox - either he lied to the ARU Board about the secret $6 million payment plan to Andrew Cox or he told them about it and they thought: 'yeah good idea'. SO why did he sell it to Cox? Why didn't he hug Alan Winney by the bootstraps six months earlier when he offered to buy it as at end 2014? these questions are still unanswered but are the root of the financial problems for ARU and imo the lack of transparency is why a lot of sponsors have backed away from RA and MRRU.
With Pulver crying "we're pretty much broke" his job as CEO was to deliver a strategy that would save the union in Australia - instead he knifed them in the guts and took his $750,000 salary pa year and $500,000 incentive payment (2017) - thanks for coming - nothing to see here - good night Raelene.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Lets face some home truths - NZ professional super rugby sides are too superior to make it remotely interesting for oz sides unless Nz have double our number of sides which won't happen as nz small country and can't sustain commercially. So simple fact is let nz have their own competition or NZ-SA competition and we join twiggy ball post 2020. We use the latter to rebuild...and lets face it Fiji and Japanese teams would offer closer contests (assuming only 1 team from each) which would be more attractive games to watch than superb nz sides just kicking our arse by 50+ points.

We don't need to have a provincial competition with NZ as fact is it is boring as just not competitive....rebuilt with Asia Indo Pacific competition teams.......hello Twiggy ready to join you post 2020...

 

[Joe King]

I think it's on a bit of a scale. Of course the NZRU don't want rugby in Oz to die, but they don't want Oz to beat them either. The NZRU want to keep Oz rugby hopeful, but keep NZ rugby teams winning most of the time. That's the way it has been for the last decade, and NZ rugby has never ever been in better shape.

 

[dru]

@WoB

Thanks for the input mate. Have to say though that I suspect the sour feeling toward Aus rugby among NZ fans is stronger than you suggest - not unlike the sour feeling from Aus fans toward RA which is much higher than some optimists here wish to accept. It is good news that the NZR guys have their heads switched on - consistent with everything we see from them.

NZ has a thorny issue ahead - Australian rugby. We all see that NZ and Aus are entwined but it is an unnecessary conclusion that things must stay that way.

I dont actually disagree that three teams (presuming we grow the grass roots, improve the Premier comps and the clubs, and improve coaching across the board) is the right quantity to match (sort of) the NZ franchise quality. Unfortunately it would kill the professional game here. IMO. And yes a national footprint, which I believe to be a fundamental requirement, would reduce average quality.

So we must consider taking a domestic comp and then look to a representational system over the domestic comp to create a smaller season at the tail end which might match the Kiwis. I call this a SOO system which might meld into a Champions League style comp that is trans Tasman, include SA, Argentina and Japan if you like.

But it wont suit New Zealand.

An alternative is to allow Australia the number of teams it needs but level the playing field by NZ selecting players for the ABs from the comp, not just from the NZ based home teams in the comp. Also wont work for NZ and the NZ fans.

I'm not saying anything you havent heard, but I think it is time to cut Aus free from Super. But then where does that leave NZ? Not ideal either?

Like it or not, the Australia rugby problem is a Kiwi problem too. I get the felling that NZR have not missed this point at all. As I said previously though, what will they do about it? Leadership will not come from RA.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think it's on a bit of a scale. Of course the NZRU don't want rugby in Oz to die, but they don't want Oz to beat them either. The NZRU want to keep Oz rugby hopeful, but keep NZ rugby teams winning most of the time. That's the way it has been for the last decade, and NZ rugby has never ever been in better shape.

The irony is with the threat from NZ article saying kick Oz out of Super Rugby - could not agree more - but irony is NZ rugby would suffer more - as we join Twiggy Ball and NZ rugby get a TV audience instantly diminished and commercials no where near attractive...Trans tasman comp won't work as we are too shite and NZ are too small too have commercially more teams.....so simple fact is we are destined for Twiggys indo pacific comp....put a few marquees in for weaker countries participation but already professional Fiji and Japanese team more likely to give more even contest and nice attacking rugby for style of games these teams play....

 

[Gnostic]

Pulver was in over his depth when he agreed to sell the Melbourne Rebels to Andrew Cox - either he lied to the ARU Board about the secret $6 million payment plan to Andrew Cox or he told them about it and they thought: 'yeah good idea'. SO why did he sell it to Cox? Why didn't he hug Alan Winney by the bootstraps six months earlier when he offered to buy it as at end 2014? these questions are still unanswered but are the root of the financial problems for ARU and imo the lack of transparency is why a lot of sponsors have backed away from RA and MRRU.

With Pulver crying "we're pretty much broke" his job as CEO was to deliver a strategy that would save the union in Australia - instead he knifed them in the guts and took his $750,000 salary pa year and $500,000 incentive payment (2017) - thanks for coming - nothing to see here - good night Raelene.

So many people still do not see it. This is not just the ARU culture, it is the Executive and Board culture in Australia. Morally and fundamentally corrupt. These scum bags are in it for themselves monetarily and in terms of self aggrandisement. Just look at the banks, even after AMP gets roasted for conduct that courts will determine the legality of was at the very best totally immoral, they appoint another piece of shit in David Murray, another fish from the same small cess pond that previously ran the font of virtue the Commonwealth bank. AND its not just the banks, one of the highest paid Executives in Australia is James Hardie's CEO, the man in charge of a company that pays him money that nobody can "earn" including performance bonuses yet at the same this company fails to make its contributions to the Asbestos fund.

Now ask yourself was Pulver out of his depth? Why did they do what they did? Simply because they are lining their pockets and all is good. All neatly facilitated by ex-players on the board who are not qualified in any way to be there, who themselves since professionalism do nothing to improve their skills and execution of their jobs and have milked the cow dry. Why be surprised.

 

[kiap]

I get the felling that NZR have not missed this point at all. As I said previously though, what will they do about it? Leadership will not come from RA.

I don't think there is much NZR can do about it.

Frankly, this a problem Australia needs to sort out within Australia … although as you say RA won't provide leadership.

The change will have to come from elsewhere.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Twiggy Ball to lead the revolution as I think most understand if it is successful it will lead to a potential revolution.......

Power balance will shift....and can't happen soon enough...RA is dead wood and needs a major overhaul.....everyone knows it even RA.....

 

[dru]

I don't think there is much NZR can do about it.

Frankly, this a problem Australia needs to sort out within Australia . although as you say RA won't provide leadership.

The change will have to come from elsewhere.

Kiap, yes you are right of course.

In the mean time NZR MUST do something. Super vision is a start - Aus with 3, 4, or 5 teams? Trans Tasman interest or refusal? Demand shrinking team numbers for "strength"? They eventually have to make decisions. This will effect us without doubt.

A smart RA would be looking to influence this.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

As we march towards 50-0 since last time oz Super Rugby side won against nz Super Rugby side slowly but surely it spells the death knell for RA and Super Rugby....bring on the revolution Twiggy as quite frankly we need a new broom and WSR offering lot more interest at this point than RA SANZAAR inspired dross....

Yes not just about switching horses but rather needing new innovative thinking for how we build from the ground up and lets face it Twiggy showed more of a plan to do that in shorter spaces of time then RA done in longer time frames...

Bring on the revolution Twiggy as plenty ready to rise up, follow and support your endeavours and new fresh approach to rugby in this country...

 

[Inside Shoulder]

If Gregor Paul is right and all the kiwis care about is SA - where were they tonight?

 

[Joe King]

So many people still do not see it. This is not just the ARU culture, it is the Executive and Board culture in Australia. Morally and fundamentally corrupt. These scum bags are in it for themselves monetarily and in terms of self aggrandisement. Just look at the banks, even after AMP gets roasted for conduct that courts will determine the legality of was at the very best totally immoral, they appoint another piece of shit in David Murray, another fish from the same small cess pond that previously ran the font of virtue the Commonwealth bank. AND its not just the banks, one of the highest paid Executives in Australia is James Hardie's CEO, the man in charge of a company that pays him money that nobody can "earn" including performance bonuses yet at the same this company fails to make its contributions to the Asbestos fund.

Now ask yourself was Pulver out of his depth? Why did they do what they did? Simply because they are lining their pockets and all is good. All neatly facilitated by ex-players on the board who are not qualified in any way to be there, who themselves since professionalism do nothing to improve their skills and execution of their jobs and have milked the cow dry. Why be surprised.

Is this similar to what you are saying:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/force-back-how-do-we-protect-other-sporting-teams-linda-reynolds/

 

[Gnostic]

Is this similar to what you are saying:



https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/force-back-how-do-we-protect-other-sporting-teams-linda-reynolds/

If both sides of Politics were not complicit in this I'd give her some kudos. They are part of the culture, just look how many have nice cushy jobs lined up when they resign from parliament for "family" reasons such as Mr Mike Baird. As Dick Smith said earlier this week, in times past the situation we are seeing with regard to governance as we have been discussing led directly to revolutions often bloody. It should be noted that Joseph Stiglitz also noted this point some years ago in an interview on his book the "Price of Inequality"

 

[Joe King]

But look how close the Tahs got. If we just hold onto the ball more, create more opportunities when we're in the opposition half, and don't give away silly penalties, we could win. And then the dam would break. We would have the blueprint to win all the time. And as we know, we just need a few more victories and the crowds would fall in love with Super Rugby again. We're so close now, I can smell it. Time to expand Super Rugby. Get into America. Everyone's excited again. Remember, Super Rugby is the best provincial rugby competition in the world!