Where to for Super Rugby?

[Joe King]

I don't disagree in anyway about NZ in some way helping, but I am asking again what do you want them to do? It is a genuine question, not in anyway trying to put down Aus rugby. And really my argument really was the idea that it seems to be NZRU's fault that Aus rugby is where it is. As for not understanding the sports competition here, I don't ,what I keep saying is never use it for an excuse, as soon as we use excuses it means we (and I say we because I have been involved in Aus rugby for most of 20 years I been here)have a reason to stop trying to make it better. And it is a reason I have heard from the day I got here, that it is so hard because of the competition poor us can't do much!! You yourself have brought that very point, because when I came here in the 90s soccer was so poorly supported, so what did the soccer people do? I not sure but though certainly a lot more popular now! I hope you understand my point, and my only point is we have to stop making excuses and stop waiting for NZRU to fix the problems or for Soccer, League or AFL to fall over!

I agree that the unusually competitive sporting landscape in Oz should not be used as an excuse to give up, or to whinge. But it is important to be realistic and accept what rugby is up against here. Soccer has always had the advantage of participation numbers and by being a non-contact alternative. Still, I think the goal should simply be to do all that we can to be as good as we can be, given our situation. And this is where the debate should lie. Are we doing all that we can to be as good as we can be?

 

[Joe King]

I don't think we should blame the NZRU. They are simply looking after their own best interests, as we would be. We can try to persuade them that our best is also in their best interests, but we need to accept it if they disagree. ATM, things are so good for rugby in NZ that I don't think anything would persuade them, even if we were right about an impeding danger.

RA simply needs a best case scenario plan, post 2019, that doesn't rely on other countries to save us.

 

[wamberal]

And such a plan will have to be pretty conservative, with no overly optimistic forecasts.

I know this is a deeply unpopular opinion, but we will have to go back to our old strengths and try to build on them. Forget about expansion, concentrate on survival, and hope that organic growth keeps us alive.

 

[dru]

Not sure that I would actually like to see it happen, but one step might be to allow All Blacks' eligibility to apply to NZ players in Aus Super teams.

It's a likely outcome from what is needed: NZ-Aus managing the comp for the best interests of the comp. As opposed to looking internally for advantage the way things seem to work right now.

For it to have a chance here in Aus we need a National footprint that covers at least the 5, possibly an additional team in Sydney. Then we need games during the season proper where the fan can watch at home live each second weekend.

The schedule needs to be aware of local issues - and react to them. Not wise to schedule a game in melbourne if AFL finals are on. Ditto Sydney and NRL finals. ANZAC day weekend should lock in so all NZ teams are playing an Aussie team. Spread equally between the two countries.

In order to better equalise the competition, Australia can't survive by culling until the level matches NZ. So NZ need to reconsider thinking about changing All Black rep duties from playing in NZ to playing in the southern hemisphere pro comp. I'd suggest a follow on at season end where we look to South Africa and wherever else fits the scene, but a SOO style comp, but probably warm up plus knock out.

The Aus teams for this comp CAN be "culled" to whatever number of teams is the right number for competitiveness. I'm guessing that to be 3 teams, but whatever number fits. You'd presume that the Kiwis would retain the 5, but repatriate any appropriate players from Australia on whatever basis fits.

It's a rough theme, there will be plenty of better ideas but the key is: NZRU start working for the best interest of the best rugby comp that we are capable of creating - not the best domestic team level. RA need a similar kick (with a bigger more painful boot).

 

[Proud Pig]

Unfortunately, I believe the game in Australia is unsustainable at it's current level. We need to look to how soccer manages to be holding a reasonable position in Australia while sitting below both League and AFL in the public pecking order.
I fear the only answer for RA is to accept it is a minor code in Australia and accept that. Allow anyone to play for Australia who qualifies regardless of where the ply their trade. This will mean a major exodus of players to Europe and Japan chasing the money but so be it. Australian rugby will have to become semi-professional rather than fully professional but maybe that will mean the game will be able to generate sufficient revenue to be self-supporting which it is not now. I don't believe that crowds would drop significantly as it is only really the die hards going now.
If we continue trying to be fully professional in a market where we are the fourth code in a country with a population of 20 million we are going to die a slow and painful death. We may already be too far gone to try to save the situation.
Maybe I am just depressed at the state of the game and overstating the peril of the position I think the game is in but then again maybe not.

 

[kiap]

The Aus teams for this comp CAN be "culled" to whatever number of teams is the right number for competitiveness. I'm guessing that to be 3 teams, but whatever number fits.

If it's cut to 3 teams then I'd say Australian rugby is rooted, not just Super Rugby for the remaining 3 years.

Either way, Western Australia needs to cut itself loose and get the IPRC rolling within the next 6 months.

Pro rugby in this country is going the way of NBL basketball here in the noughties … down for many years.

 

[dru]

If it's cut to 3 teams then I'd say Australian rugby is rooted, not just Super Rugby for the remaining 3 years.

Either way, Western Australia needs to cut itself loose and get the IPRC rolling within the next 6 months.

Pro rugby in this country is going the way of NBL basketball here in the noughties … down for many years.

I think we’re rooted with 4. But I was proposing a domestic group of 6 teams + Kiwis. Which is light on team numbers for a successful domestic comp but doable with others in the right time zone. A SOO style mini comp, think Champions League (but not) would work with smaller numbers.

 

[half]

Dan

Further to our discussions on the previous page pertaining to what can NZ do to help.

I think first acknowledge the challenges faced by rugby in Australia then don’t be kind to our management they need a few kicks up the backside.

Moreover to arguably work with Australia to create say a 16 team trans-Tasman competition and have a look at my reply to Wam as it may shed some light on whats happening in Australian sport right now as rugby drops teams.

Wam you said we need to stop trying to expansion and concentrate on our traditional strengths. Trouble is many traditional rugby areas are gone and if we don’t expand we will loose out totally, as an example look at Eastwood, Chatswood etc the population demographics mean traditional strong areas are lost we must expand.

Wam, what can never be over looked is what our competition is doing, while we reduce our teams.

AFL, will run AFLX which is a short form quick fire version of the game played on rectangular fields sorta the BBL version of AFL. Plus there women’s game. Both will be heavily marked with giveaway tickets and media hype from the southern media.

League, introducing its own women’s game, plus increasing investments in PI nations and tournaments.

Soccer, currently in a state of civil war about money and expansion. Plans for expansion are for two teams I think next year but moving to a 16 team competition and a second division.

 

[Dan54]

I agree that the unusually competitive sporting landscape in Oz should not be used as an excuse to give up, or to whinge. But it is important to be realistic and accept what rugby is up against here. Soccer has always had the advantage of participation numbers and by being a non-contact alternative. Still, I think the goal should simply be to do all that we can to be as good as we can be, given our situation. And this is where the debate should lie. Are we doing all that we can to be as good as we can be?

Joe I wish I could like that post more than once! We have to always realise that we have to find positive ways to improve our game, and as you say games like Soccer will always have participation numbers,it is has much higher numbers in NZ too, we have to make our game the one that people choose when they get old enough to make their own decisions. And I believe things like the women's 7s results from weekend will help, you know more younger women hopefully playing the game, tend to be happier for their kids to play.

 

[Tomikin]

Joe I wish I could like that post more than once! We have to always realise that we have to find positive ways to improve our game, and as you say games like Soccer will always have participation numbers,it is has much higher numbers in NZ too, we have to make our game the one that people choose when they get old enough to make their own decisions. And I believe things like the women's 7s results from weekend will help, you know more younger women hopefully playing the game, tend to be happier for their kids to play.

And the men's result.. If we keep winning in sevens it'd be exciting.

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[andrewM]

The question must be asked, why would Rugby supporters in WA want to?

https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/w...2021-according-to-players-union-ng-b88728150z

Western Force could return to Super Rugby in 2021, according to players union
Bret Harris | AAP
January 29, 2018 1:57PM
PLAYERS union boss Ross Xenos has foreshadowed the possibility of the Western Force returning to a revamped Super Rugby competition in 2021.

Rugby Australia axed the Force for financial reasons last September as Super Rugby reverted to a 15-team competition following an unsuccessful experiment with an 18-team format.

But there is uncertainty about whether the SANZAAR joint partnership between South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and Argentina will continue following the expiry of the current broadcast agreement in 2020.

Even if the SANZAAR partnership continues, the structure of the Super Rugby competition beyond 2020 could be very different.

With new Rugby Australia chief executive Raelene Castle visiting Western Australia this week to discuss the future of rugby in the state, Xenos believes it is important to keep the door open for the return of the Force or another professional rugby team from the west.

"I'm very optimistic about the re-integration of a professional West Australian team into whatever elite professional rugby competition Australian rugby participates in," Xenos said.

"The uncertainty over the Super Rugby model beyond 2020 means we can't afford to narrow our focus or to take any options off the table.

"One of the models that has been speculated for 2021 is: could Australian rugby pursue a domestic competition where we have no matches with South African or New Zealand teams as part of the regular season?

Xenos said West Australian mining magnate Andrew Forrest's proposed Indo Pacific Rugby Championship, expected to kick off in March next year, could help to provide an alternative competition model for Super Rugby.

"(The IPRC) is a great opportunity for Australian rugby to be involved in professional rugby competitions beyond our involvement in Super Rugby, which has the potential to create an array of strategic opportunities for the game at the expiry of the current broadcast deal at the end of 2020," Xenos said.

"Playing more games in our time-zone and against teams which our fan base has tribalism with is an important part of any future decision-making.

"The opportunity to explore new teams into the Pacific Islands and into Asia as the Indo Pacific Rugby Championship is cultivating presents great opportunity for Australia to have other alternatives for 2021, which might involve playing New Zealand and South African teams less in order to deliver more engaging local content, which is what we need to ensure our rugby economy can thrive moving forward."

- AAP

 

[kiap]

The question must be asked, why would Rugby supporters in WA want to?

Yeah, I'm cynical about the comments. Their words aren't worth much.

Unless and until this mob get the IPRC to proceed under viable terms for WA in 2019, there's little point in talking about 2021.

Supe? Pffft.

 

[half]

If fixing Super Rugby is not the most important thing in Australian rugby today then I am a monkey’s uncle.

Reading an article on the Roar I was, stunned, stupefied, staggered, speechless, surprised, shocked, the S words are not enough flabbergasted, gobsmacked.

Bewildered will do as my final words, Raelene Castle, is reported on the Roar today saying the following.

• regaining the Bledisloe Cup is her priority

• While she recognised Super Rugby success after last season’s dismal showing and off-field turmoil was also important, plus the 2019 World Cup, New Zealand-raised Castle understood the national longing to see the Bledisloe return to a local trophy cabinet.

Latter she went on to say in listening she heard talk of a Trans-Tamsin competition.

She also said she wanted to unite the code and will head to WA to do so.

Sorry guys most understand my view, is we need to grow from the bottom and develop a national domestic competition, this fixation with the senior men’s team for me anyway has been part of our steady decline.

 

[Rebels3]

It's the whole chicken or the egg scenario. Kids don't play Rugby without heroes, while there is no heroes for the future if there is no kids playing.

I wouldn't look into it, at the end of the day technically she is probably right. The Bledisloe Cup is probably the most important thing to Australian Rugby, just like the Champions League is to Football teams, the AFL Grand Final is to AFL teams and SOO is to the NRL. But it also doesn't mean that these teams/competitions aren't constantly evolving their framework to best achieve these results.

I'd be more interested in what she has to say about the framework in which she believes this is best achieved. If from there she said buying high end talent instead of nurturing it then i'd be more alarmed.

Rugby Australia is a mess but the one person i think that deserves a little bit of time before judged is her

 

[Dan54]

Dan

Further to our discussions on the previous page pertaining to what can NZ do to help.

I think first acknowledge the challenges faced by rugby in Australia then don’t be kind to our management they need a few kicks up the backside.

Moreover to arguably work with Australia to create say a 16 team trans-Tasman competition and have a look at my reply to Wam as it may shed some light on whats happening in Australian sport right now as rugby drops teams.

That's good half, I happy to see an idea of what you think will help, I could see how your idea of 1 16 team trans tasman would help, provided there is the TV money to compensate the loss of revenue for Super rugby not being there. I will also think NZR would have to be able to sell it to NZ rugby people, who in a lot of cases want to see the SA be kept. I not trying to say your idea not workable, but do see the main sticking points being money(thats the biggy) and also getting the NZ rugby fans onside with it. I think if an idea like this was used we have to remember, one of the problems in here is games from SA are on at unpopular times , you have to remember a game kicking off in a place like Perth at 7.30pm is still unplatable for most NZ fans as it about midnight in NZ. But I happy you have got ideas.

 

[Dan54]

Not sure that I would actually like to see it happen, but one step might be to allow All Blacks' eligibility to apply to NZ players in Aus Super teams.

While I can see what you and dru are suggesting here seems probably a fairly easy step BR, I doubt that anyone really wants that to happen, even the likes of England,Wales etc are no longer picking players who are not playing for one of their own clubs, and not one who is playing in France etc, it just especially down here causes to much problem with getting players released etc for training camps. and it would work both ways, how often does Chuckles call Wallaby squad together for a couple of days for a camp etc? I really can't see it happening from either country.

 

[The Honey Badger]

If fixing Super Rugby is not the most important thing in Australian rugby today then I am a monkey’s uncle.

Reading an article on the Roar I was, stunned, stupefied, staggered, speechless, surprised, shocked, the S words are not enough flabbergasted, gobsmacked.

Bewildered will do as my final words, Raelene Castle, is reported on the Roar today saying the following.

• regaining the Bledisloe Cup is her priority

• While she recognised Super Rugby success after last season’s dismal showing and off-field turmoil was also important, plus the 2019 World Cup, New Zealand-raised Castle understood the national longing to see the Bledisloe return to a local trophy cabinet.

Latter she went on to say in listening she heard talk of a Trans-Tamsin competition.

She also said she wanted to unite the code and will head to WA to do so.

Sorry guys most understand my view, is we need to grow from the bottom and develop a national domestic competition, this fixation with the senior men’s team for me anyway has been part of our steady decline.

Not sure what you expected.

When someone who clearly knows nothing about this game and all its complexity is given the job of running it.

But that is the price you pay for a cleanskin with no baggage.

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[Slim 293]

Reading an article on the Roar I was, stunned, stupefied, staggered, speechless, surprised, shocked, the S words are not enough flabbergasted, gobsmacked.

Why? Has the writing over there gotten worse?

When someone who clearly knows nothing about this game and all its complexity is given the job of running it.

But that is the price you pay for a cleanskin with no baggage.

Has it been established that she "clearly" knows nothing about this game?

 

[The Honey Badger]

Bewildered will do as my final words, Raelene Castle, is reported on the Roar today saying the following.

• regaining the Bledisloe Cup is her priority

• While she recognised Super Rugby success after last season’s dismal showing and off-field turmoil was also important, plus the 2019 World Cup,

Obviously Bill left the playbook in the top draw of the desk. The same one JON left there.

Let's grow the game Top down,

We can expect more of the same.




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[Strewthcobber]

Stretching my memory here, but wasn't Wallaby success/reclaining the Bledisloe the overwhelming winner of that fan survey the ARU did a couple of years ago?

She's just following the corporate line publically. She's smart enough to look at the red ink everywhere and realise super rugby is where her focus is

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