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Where to for Super Rugby?

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Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
Make no mistake dru, they have a serious lesson coming. I'm concerned that they seem to think that cutting to 4 teams will fix the super rugby problem. It may provide a short term sugar hit with a little more concentration of talent, but that will quickly disipate as more players head overseas. I tend to think that all it is going to do is put the day of reckoning off a couple of years.

Bearing in mind that they have contractual obligations to SANZAAR, we can't just walk out of super rugby (we could offer to have all 5 of our teams cut as I previously indicated), so we should be working on what we are going to do post 2020 right now. The planning should have started already. Sadly, I'll bet that little or no planning occurs.
Rugby has been losing fans for the last decade and one poster highlighted on here the massive loss of opportunity to convert casual wallaby fans that has in the past been massive but not capitalised on. Now we have have seen over the last decade not only erosion of casual fans (how many conversations have I had with so many people between 20 and 45 on they use to watch wallabies but lost interest as game not changed or lost appeal c.f..to other competing sports who have changed to offer more appealing product) but the rusted on from complete lack of any real strategic leadership of our game coupled with some pretty screwed up governance structures for Australian rugby at many levels.

I have no confidence with out a revolution and dramatic change rugby will die a very quick death in this country where to recover would take decades.

Enough is enough. Many quality posters have been predicting this would happen for some time but no one would listen. Time for people to start demanding real change and real leadership as this is pretty dire and you only have to look at how much coverage rugby gets in the main press to realise how irrelevant rugby in this country is becoming at great rate of knots.

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Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Also, what the fuck are two Australian​s doing being regulars in the best NZ side.

Not against them personally, they're just taking the contract that comes to them but Allalatola got shafted at the Tahs (how the fuck did Tilse keep getting contracts) and Samu had two excellent NPC seasons before being offered a training contract with the Saders.

If an NZ team can pick talent better than Australian ones (obviously not 100% hit rate, but still), there's something very wrong.

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I've queried to non-signing of Ala'atoa ad nausem on these threads. WE don't rate him apparently, but the Crusaders can see something that we can't. So the talent laden Kiwis back the kid and none of the Aussie franchises think he's good enough.

And yes mate, there is something very, very wrong with the talent identification process. One only has to look at the Waratahs and the Reds - on the basis of all objective measures, one of them should top the Aussie conference almost every year. One of them should always be in contention to win the competition, or at least go deep into the finals. And last night we have the worst capitulation in Waratah history to a team that is only in the competition because of the African National Congress and even though the Reds beat the Kings the week before, the Kings put 30 points on them.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
G

As a Qld-er living in Sydney, I HATE the SRU and the SS. But you know what? My rugby fix isnt coming from Super. I'm thinking about the locals again. Can anyone show me an easy way to work out where and when Balmain are playing?

Pity you've formed such a negative view of SS. Get yourself down to Manly Oval one Saturday.:)

In the meantime, you can use the subbies website to find out where Balmain and/or Drummoyne are playing.:)

http://rugbyresults.rugby.net.au/drawresult.asp?id=274170&seasonid=431
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
It's actually the one reasonably successful thing that the ARU has done in the past 10-15 years. It's not perfect, and I've suggested on other threads where and how it can be improved, but in comparison to any other act or omission of the ARU it's a resounding success.
The nrc is something to build on...as.product got better over time...not saying can't be even better...and would prefer more rugby key stakeholders at all levels contributed to how to improve it as I am over this political faction shit playing petty politics and not uniting and collaborating to improve our game.

Hence what I am saying is whether you are papworth or some aru dude stop being a nob playing your own political self interest and work together to better the game. Example being nrc which is step in right direction and rather than tell us what is wrong with it, work with others on how we can improve it. As unless this sort of collaboration can happen and overcome the ugly politics and multi layers decentralised structures this code has no hope to recover from here.

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joeyjohnz

Sydney Middleton (9)
Imagine if the NRC was just the 5 Super franchises and Fiji for the next 3 years though.

It enables Rebels/Force to maintain professional status once cut from next years competition. It keeps our professional players.
Players are guaranteed a certain amount of Super Rugby revenue, and the ARU proportion hasn't changed, even with the reduction of teams - so there's no difference in cost

This puts Australia in the best position possible to return to 5 Super teams come the new broadcast agreement in 2020
 
T

TOCC

Guest
The decision to go to 18 teams, as I recall it, was not Pulver's to make. Neither is the decision to cut a team.
?
Nahhhhh..... SANZAAR decisions require like that require unamous decision from all unions.

Pulver was CEO at the time the new comp structure was agreed to, and the decisions to cut a team requires a unanimous from all members, SANZAAR couldn't cut a team if he said no...
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The NRC has been relatively well implemented. It doesn't cost the ARU a cent. In fact it made money last season. The quality is improving. Rapidly. It's highly entertaining. And has seen strong growth both in terms of attendance and viewership. That's a pretty successful launch.



Unfortunately all your points are highly debatable, as evidenced by the massive crowd attending the final last year.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The nrc is something to build on.as.product got better over time.not saying can't be even better.and would prefer more rugby key stakeholders at all levels contributed to how to improve it as I am over this political faction shit playing petty politics and not uniting and collaborating to improve our game.



Hence what I am saying is whether you are papworth or some aru dude stop being a nob playing your own political self interest and work together to better the game. Example being nrc which is step in right direction and rather than tell us what is wrong with it, work with others on how we can improve it. As unless this sort of collaboration can happen and overcome the ugly politics and multi layers decentralised structures this code has no hope to recover from here.



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The trouble is if you fundamentally do not believe the NRC is the right direction and you have no faith what so ever in the ARU why would you be a "nob" and just blindly support them in what they want.

The fact is the ARU has no social capital or standing with a very large number of people in Rugby now and anything they want that requires some modicum of goodwill or trust just will not happen because they have no capital, they squandered it through greed, arrogance and plain ineptitude.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
No, they aren't.



Yes they are. See how that goes?

I gave a pretty definitive example of how they are indeed debatable. Another point to add to that already given is the cost - not all costs are monetary. How much goodwill has been burnt not only with certain well known Sydney clubs but with unconverted fans and potential fans.

Seriously - I live and work across three regional Rugby competition areas and I know one other Rugby fan/player that watches the NRC and that is because his son is playing. If it has been so successfully implemented it has failed to pick up the easy low hanging fruit in the engagement stakes, and some of those like me are actively negative about the aims and prospects of the whole thing.

The NRC debate I have absolutely no doubt will go exactly the same way as the argument I have been waging here and elsewhere for the last 10+ years about the mismanagement of Australian Rugby. There is little doubt now that those of on the non-complimentary side of the fence have been right all along even though we were derided right up until the end of 2016.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
None of my Melbourne friends watch the AFL, therefore the AFL is not very popular in Melbourne.....



The very obvious flaw is the people I am talking about are Rugby people, they play or are involved in the game at some level, or were in the past avid followers of Super Rugby. Can you understand that? These are the people who should be first up to watch, that they aren't ells you there is a massive disconnect. Forget converting new people, if you can't engage with current players and those already involved you have pretty much zero chance.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
The very obvious flaw is the people I am talking about are Rugby people, they play or are involved in the game at some level, or were in the past avid followers of Super Rugby. Can you understand that?


I completely understand that there are some really miserable people in Sydney club rugby circles..........
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
'You Couldn't Make it Up if You Tried'

Instalment #16

SANZAAR MAY SUE THE ARU

From Wayne Smith, The Australian, today

"The Australian Rugby Union could be damned if it does move to sack a Super Rugby team, and damned if it doesn’t, with SANZAAR potentially in line to sue the ARU if it does not deliver on the promises made at the crisis meeting in London in March.

SANZAAR emerged from that meeting with a clear understanding that its member nations would reduce the Super Rugby competition in 2018 from 18 teams to 15, with Australia promising to cut one of its five existing teams and South Africa two of its six franchises.

But sources have told The Weekend Australian that SANZAAR was caught completely unawares by the fact that the team the ARU had specifically targeted for the axe, the Western Force, had signed an agreement with the ARU last August that guaranteed there would be a Super Rugby team in Perth at least until the end of 2020.

The revelation that the Force may have a watertight legal case to stay alive now has SANZAAR official looking sceptically at ARU promises. Where the southern hemisphere joint venture organisation has confidence that South Africa has a fair and open process in place to drop down to four teams, there is a very real belief that the ARU is making it up as it goes.

But it also means that the ARU is now caught between a rock and a hard place …. either it drops the Force or the Melbourne Rebels, both of which have legal grounds for believing they are untouchable, or it abandons the process entirely, in which case SANZAAR could sue.

Certainly there would be a strong case to be argued that the ARU would be in breach of its agreement to help deliver a 15-strong competition if it now abandons the process.

As manoeuvring room narrows on all sides, ARU directors must seriously be asking themselves how they have been drawn into these turbulent waters by an apparent lack of due diligence by ARU management.

A week after the Melbourne Rebels released a media statement in which it said it denied the ARU the right to “cut or chop” the Rebels from the competition, the Western Force yesterday issued a similar press release.

In it the Force said the position of RugbyWA was clear. “Under the current arrangements, the Western Force is entitled to participate in the Super Rugby competition until December 30, 2020.

“There is no basis on which the ARU can purport to remove the Western Force from the competition. The ARU must work to ensure that the Western Force remains based in Perth for many seasons to come.


“Put simply, RugbyWA is not required to state a business (or any) case for the Force to remain in the competition.”

The Force have retained the former governor of Western Australia, Malcolm McCusker, to head their legal team, while Tim North, senior counsel, is well-placed to aid the Rebels given that he is president of the Victorian Rugby Union.

It is not known what, if any, legal advice the ARU has received but it is clear that management can expect to be subjected to a thorough grilling from its board in the very near future. In particular, they will be asked about assurances given to the SANZAAR meeting in London, and about why the Brumbies were removed from the endangered list.

The rumour is that the Brumbies were absolved from the process because they had a superior football program, but such things are cyclical. In recent times both Queensland and NSW could have claimed to have the best coaching program but on current indications, that no longer applies. It is fair to assume that the Brumbies eventually will strike hard times as well.

The only way out of this mess seems to be through negotiation, with the obvious merger candidates being the Melbourne Rebel — if owner Andrew Cox is prepared to talk — and the Brumbies.

But the ARU has backed itself into a corner and either humiliatingly backtracks to reinvolve the Brumbies in the process or face a perilous journey through the courts. Both courses are certain to anger directors."
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
'You Couldn't Make it Up if You Tried'

Instalment #16

SANZAAR MAY SUE THE ARU

From Wayne Smith, The Australian, today

"The Australian Rugby Union could be damned if it does move to sack a Super Rugby team, and damned if it doesn’t, with SANZAAR potentially in line to sue the ARU if it does not deliver on the promises made at the crisis meeting in London in March.

SANZAAR emerged from that meeting with a clear understanding that its member nations would reduce the Super Rugby competition in 2018 from 18 teams to 15, with Australia promising to cut one of its five existing teams and South Africa two of its six franchises.

But sources have told The Weekend Australian that SANZAAR was caught completely unawares by the fact that the team the ARU had specifically targeted for the axe, the Western Force, had signed an agreement with the ARU last August that guaranteed there would be a Super Rugby team in Perth at least until the end of 2020.

The revelation that the Force may have a watertight legal case to stay alive now has SANZAAR official looking sceptically at ARU promises. Where the southern hemisphere joint venture organisation has confidence that South Africa has a fair and open process in place to drop down to four teams, there is a very real belief that the ARU is making it up as it goes.

But it also means that the ARU is now caught between a rock and a hard place …. either it drops the Force or the Melbourne Rebels, both of which have legal grounds for believing they are untouchable, or it abandons the process entirely, in which case SANZAAR could sue.

Certainly there would be a strong case to be argued that the ARU would be in breach of its agreement to help deliver a 15-strong competition if it now abandons the process.

As manoeuvring room narrows on all sides, ARU directors must seriously be asking themselves how they have been drawn into these turbulent waters by an apparent lack of due diligence by ARU management.

A week after the Melbourne Rebels released a media statement in which it said it denied the ARU the right to “cut or chop” the Rebels from the competition, the Western Force yesterday issued a similar press release.

In it the Force said the position of RugbyWA was clear. “Under the current arrangements, the Western Force is entitled to participate in the Super Rugby competition until December 30, 2020.

“There is no basis on which the ARU can purport to remove the Western Force from the competition. The ARU must work to ensure that the Western Force remains based in Perth for many seasons to come.


“Put simply, RugbyWA is not required to state a business (or any) case for the Force to remain in the competition.”

The Force have retained the former governor of Western Australia, Malcolm McCusker, to head their legal team, while Tim North, senior counsel, is well-placed to aid the Rebels given that he is president of the Victorian Rugby Union.

It is not known what, if any, legal advice the ARU has received but it is clear that management can expect to be subjected to a thorough grilling from its board in the very near future. In particular, they will be asked about assurances given to the SANZAAR meeting in London, and about why the Brumbies were removed from the endangered list.

The rumour is that the Brumbies were absolved from the process because they had a superior football program, but such things are cyclical. In recent times both Queensland and NSW could have claimed to have the best coaching program but on current indications, that no longer applies. It is fair to assume that the Brumbies eventually will strike hard times as well.

The only way out of this mess seems to be through negotiation, with the obvious merger candidates being the Melbourne Rebel — if owner Andrew Cox is prepared to talk — and the Brumbies.

But the ARU has backed itself into a corner and either humiliatingly backtracks to reinvolve the Brumbies in the process or face a perilous journey through the courts. Both courses are certain to anger directors."

Surely the ARU couldn't find themselves in legal strife with a "world renowned corporate lawyer" on the ARU board?

It simply beggars belief for a start that all 5 franchises don't have the same participation agreement with the ARU.

I think a number of us have noted previously that the ARU has no objective criteria in place to determine which team is to go, despite knowing since at least before that London meeting that they wanted to chop a team. (That's making the assumption that they went to the London meeting with a plan - which is a considerable leap of faith).

Not only is it bad enough that there are no prepublished objective criteria to be applied, but three teams our of five don't even have to go through any process. SANZAAR don't get much right, but they've hit the nail on the head if they have come to the view that the ARU are making it up as they go along - which incidentally seems to be standard ARU practice.

Gee, I'm glad we have all that corporate experience on the board, imagine if we just had ordinary people making these decisions. We might even have pesky things like natural justice and people following agreed upon principles of decision making.

All sporting bodies make poor decisions from time to time, but this is olympic gold medal standard.
 
L

Leo86

Guest
So the ARU are between a rock and a hard place

Not really. Do your job. Represent Australia

With whom you have contracts. Tell SANZAAR yep we have 5 teams for our share of the Super 15.

SANZAAR you have a contract with Japan, you cut them or you make the competition work stop hand balling your responsibility. If you want anyone outside of SA,NZ,AUS you sort your shit out not to our detriment.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
The most telling thing to come out of the last week is the complete radio silence from the ARU. After the Rebels and Force, forcefully made apparent their contractual assertions the ARU have gone into hiding.

I know most people want this resolved urgently, but as a Force fan I suspect the longer it drags on the better our chance of surviving and I'm happy to see the process run its course.
 
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