Where to for Super Rugby?

[hoggy]

I tend to agree with this.

Super AU into Super TT may not be viable long term, but for now it's the best option we have. And that's fine.

We don't have to have all the answers now, especially with COVID still around. Who knows when 'normal' will resume. And there are other factors too, such as RA revenue, RWC 2027 bid, private investment etc which may affect the options we have in the next couple of years.

I think RA are making all the right noises, being open to all options without making any hard calls.

The reason I'm skeptical about a local only option is about to hit us this weekend - I'm really psyched to watch some rugby this weekend, more than I've been in a long while. And it's all because I want to watch us against the Kiwis. I dare say I am not alone in that regard.

I am generally curious, how a Super AU into a TT is any less viable long term than a full TT comp, what are the financials' behind a full TT being more viable, where does that money come from.

Because with a full TT you are guaranteed limited growth in the Australian market, so is it NZ money or overseas broadcast money that is making it a preferred option.

 

[Dctarget]

To be fair if we do follow with the two competitions model, we are really stitching up the TT comp

By the time it takes place we already know who the teams that are going to be good to watch are

For example let’s say it took tahs supports 3 weeks of Super AU to realise their team was trash and wernt going to win anything, that’s 3 weeks less of fair weather fan eyeballs that TT isn’t going to get

The comps already behind the 8ball and everyone gunning for Super AU will point to skewed data to support their arguments

What's the difference from having an extended Super season and fans of the weaker teams tuning out halfway through? It's inevitable, you can't keep the mystery alive forever.

Actually, the TT solves your point. Maybe it takes the 'Tahs two months to get their shit together. In a normal extended tournament, too late, tough luck, they're already bottom of the pile. For TT, they have a fresh start and can actually save their year (hypothetically).

 

[Dan54]

I thought it was an RA endorsed SANZAAR decision, no?

Ultimately, RA endorsed it because they were broke and tried to sell it as 'increasing competitiveness' which no one bought. A sordid tale of incompetence we should all be in a hurry to move on from.

I actually think it was a SANZAAR endorsed Aus decision, I never heard it said any different, ever!

 

[barbarian]

I am generally curious, how a Super AU into a TT is any less viable long term than a full TT comp, what are the financials' behind a full TT being more viable, where does that money come from.

Because with a full TT you are guaranteed limited growth in the Australian market, so is it NZ money or overseas broadcast money that is making it a preferred option.

I'd guess a full TT would garner a better TV deal, both here and overseas. Partially because you have many more games to sell, and partially because you'd have greater interest in overseas markets.

 

[sendit]

What's the difference from having an extended Super season and fans of the weaker teams tuning out halfway through? It's inevitable, you can't keep the mystery alive forever.

Actually, the TT solves your point. Maybe it takes the 'Tahs two months to get their shit together. In a normal extended tournament, too late, tough luck, they're already bottom of the pile. For TT, they have a fresh start and can actually save their year (hypothetically).

Because one Comp will directly negatively impact the second comp?

And lol, that’s a fucking stretch and you know it haha

 

[hifflepiff]

What's the difference from having an extended Super season and fans of the weaker teams tuning out halfway through? It's inevitable, you can't keep the mystery alive forever.

Actually, the TT solves your point. Maybe it takes the 'Tahs two months to get their shit together. In a normal extended tournament, too late, tough luck, they're already bottom of the pile. For TT, they have a fresh start and can actually save their year (hypothetically).

This is another great benefit to the two separate comps. Teams get to have two chances to have a successful season.

If this year was a fully TT comp the Tahs would be fucked right now. You could write the rest of their year off. Even if they started winning games, there would be no point.

But now with a totally new comp, they can start from square one. Get a new coach, introduce new structures. If they start winning, their fans have something to look forward to and you can get the media focus back on them.

 

[Dan54]

This argument is completely tangential to the broader debate about a domestic+trans tasman v only trans-tasman, but Australia absolutely tried to maintain the Force by proposing to NZ that they only play Trans-Tasman. NZ rejected it outright because they wanted to keep playing South Africa, forcing Australia to cut a team. Also the vast majority of the arguments in favour of cutting the Force were 100% around the idea it would make us more competitive with NZ.

More recently, NZRU tried to push Australia to cut down to three teams because it was in their interest to do so.

But its pointless to debate these events, its all well trod ground.

And to be clear, I don't blame NZRU for trying to push Super Rugby in a way that benefits them. They need to look out for their own best interest.

But this does feed into my broader point. Neither of these two events would have occurred ( or at least would have occurred differently) if Australia had complete control of its own professional structures, just like every other professional sporting code in this country. We can't grow the game in this country if we're also having to run everything by NZRU as well. Its just not doable.

Once again, I am calling you out on that, show me where NZR asked Australia to cut any teams. The Aritipu repost said the best comp was 8-10 teams with preferably a PI team(funny how everyone forgets thet) and when it was commissioned and came out Aus had 4 yes 4 super teams, that was how many Aus had in Super last year!
When did Australia try to maintain Force? I never saw it and doubt whether any Force people saw it. RA actually wanted a sole TT well before Force went, but actually was never up to NZ, as SANZAR was formed by SARU, NZR and if RA had added more teams than they could afford, it's now NZR's fault that they didn't drop SA then? Really is that how you think rugby works. if a comp that Australia helped set up doesn't work everyone should do what suits Aus? Really and you pointing fingers at NZR?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I really like the idea of domestic AND trans Tasman because it gives good mix of different products to watch. No different to how I enjoy 7’s as another different style of product to watch. That is where we have an advantage compared to league and afl and where we can compete better by having a better portfolio of products. People need to stop thinking it has to be only domestic or TT as better to have more then one product but accept that if any product not working we look at adjusting that product. Eg domestic comp could be shortened or expanded depending on success or decline and likewise trans Tasman where could look at champions league style competition if TT with nz not working. What it does do though is reduce our risks of all eggs in one basket and provides mix of different competitions to keep and broaden interest in the game. I think we are in a stronger position then ever with the opportunity where else could have at least one but also possibly two successful competitions as opposed to previous zero successful pro competition given previous super rugby and nrc competitions were both failing. should be half full here.

 

[hifflepiff]

I really like the idea of domestic AND trans Tasman because it gives good mix of different products to watch. No different to how I enjoy 7’s as another different style of product to watch. That is where we have an advantage compared to league and afl and where we can compete better by having a better portfolio of products. People need to stop thinking it has to be only domestic or TT as better to have more then one product but accept that may if any product not working we look at adjusting that product. Eg domestic comp could be shortened or expanded depending on success or decline and likewise trans Tasman where could look at champions league style competition if TT with nz not working. What it does do though is reduce our risks of all eggs in one basket and provides mix of different competitions to keep and broaden interest in the game. I think we are in a stronger position then ever with the opportunity where else could have at least one but also possibly two successful competitions as opposed to previous zero successful pro competition given previous super rugby and nrc competitions were both failing. Glad should be half full here.

This. Two separate competitions is the only structure that makes sense. Everyone gets what they want.

- Australia and New Zealand can have their own competitions which they can structure any way they like without the other needing to compromise (this includes introducing more teams when it makes sense, rather than when it suits the other organisation)

- We get a bunch of Trans-Tasman games, so people that are only interested in Aus v New Zealand games can have that.

- We get the larger broadcast revenues of TT, plus the opportunity to introduce Japan into the future, which raises the potential for even larger broadcast revenues for everyone.

- Teams get the chance to win two trophies, meaning teams seasons aren't just over by May.

- Each country gets its own home grand-final, regardless of what happens in TT comp, meaning more major rugby events and more media attention.

Its the perfect compromise. Beyond some people just not liking domestic only competition, I can't see any logical argument for why this shouldn't be the structure going forward.

 

[Derpus]

I actually think it was a SANZAAR endorsed Aus decision, I never heard it said any different, ever!

Nah, the decision also involved the cutting of the South African teams. I think anyway. Not going to look it up.

Edit: maybe it was a SANZAAR decision to shrink, and RA on who to cut. Anyway, whatever.

 

[Dan54]

Nah, the decision also involved the cutting of the South African teams. I think anyway. Not going to look it up.

Edit: maybe it was a SANZAAR decision to shrink, and RA on who to cut. Anyway, whatever.

No I can't be buggered looing it up, but all I said was RA cut Force noone else, to try and blame NZR for it is ridulous.

 

[Rebels3]

On the Rugby Wrap Queensland Chairman Jeff Miller said that all the states prefer SRAU into a TT comp going forward, but not sure if it will go that way.

Paul Cully also hinted in his article the other day that there might be pressure coming from NZ players association for the TT to be the focal competition. Interesting times in the next few weeks

 

[Rugbynutter39]

On the Rugby Wrap Queensland Chairman Jeff Miller said that all the states prefer SRAU into a TT comp going forward, but not sure if it will go that way.

Paul Cully also hinted in his article the other day that there might be pressure coming from NZ players association for the TT to be the focal competition. Interesting times in the next few weeks

Time to look after oz interests for once - RA simply cannot possibly drop super rugby au altogether as surely can accomodate At least short form given nrc cf to nz mitre 10

 

[hifflepiff]

On the Rugby Wrap Queensland Chairman Jeff Miller said that all the states prefer SRAU into a TT comp going forward, but not sure if it will go that way.

Paul Cully also hinted in his article the other day that there might be pressure coming from NZ players association for the TT to be the focal competition. Interesting times in the next few weeks

Why would the NZ players association want that? Also why should we care?

 

[dru]

Why would the NZ players association want that? Also why should we care?

Yep.

 

[Joe King]

My fearless (though, baseless) prediction for 2022 onwards is that RA and NZR will agree to keep Super Rugby AU/ Super Rugby Ao with 6 teams each, but reduce both to a single round robin with a final.

This will be followed by a 12-team single round robin TT with finals.

My reasoning is:

RA will want to keep some sort of Super Rugby AU competition because of its success. However, it will be reduced to allow for a 12-team TT to better suit private investors.

They will reason that a reduced Super Rugby AU still gives the Australian teams a chance to build some confidence and momentum leading into the TT. Keeping the Super Rugby AU structure in place also acts as a fallback if the TT doesn't work as well as they'd hoped.

NZR will be content with a reduced Super Rugby Ao because it won't mean as many injuries (from a player's perspective).

NZR will also be happy with the TT being only a single round robin because it won't involve having unfair conferences.

This structure will still fit within the window before the July In-bound tests, and it still gives every team a minimum of 8 home games each year.

While not my preferred option, I think this will best suit everyone's interests overall, and I think I could also be content with it.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

My fearless (though, baseless) prediction for 2022 onwards is that RA and NZR will agree to keep Super Rugby AU/ Super Rugby Ao with 6 teams each, but reduce both to a single round robin with a final.

This will be followed by a 12-team single round robin TT with finals.

My reasoning is:

RA will want to keep some sort of Super Rugby AU competition because of its success. However, it will be reduced to allow for a 12-team TT to better suit private investors.

They will reason that a reduced Super Rugby AU still gives the Australian teams a chance to build some confidence and momentum leading into the TT. Keeping the Super Rugby AU structure in place also acts as a fallback if the TT doesn't work as well as they'd hoped.

NZR will be content with a reduced Super Rugby Ao because it won't mean as many injuries (from a player's perspective).

NZR will also be happy with the TT being only a single round robin because it won't involve having unfair conferences.

This structure will still fit within the window before the July In-bound tests, and it still gives every team a minimum of 8 home games each year.

While not my preferred option, I think this will best suit everyone's interests overall, and I think I could also be content with it.

Yeh I am pretty much aligned with thinking similar model we will end up with. We need to address though not having an NRC and follow on after July for non wallabies similar to NZ have with mitre 10 but not next years fix at this point as lower on the priority list I imagine.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I actually think it was a SANZAAR endorsed Aus decision, I never heard it said any different, ever!

Dan, not saying you are wrong, as I can no longer recall the exact details, but it seems logical to me that if there was a cut to be made to the SANZAAR sponsored competition, it would have been initiated by SANZAAR. If I do recall correctly, there would have been some financial penalty applied to RA (and presumably to SARU too if they were behind the move to axe the Kings) if they had taken a decision to reduce their contracted level of involvement.

 

[Brumby Runner]

If RA and NZRU agree to a single round robin competition and a time period in which it is to run, why would NZRU have any say, or perhaps even want to have any say in, what RA does beforehand in relation to a possible domestic competition? Why would we care if NZRU decide to abandon its SRAo or to reduce it to two teams only or include the whole of their next tier down. Their business just as running an abbreviated SRAu competition would be our business only.

 

[dru]

My fearless (though, baseless) prediction for 2022 onwards is

It's arse about by my thinking. A TT round robin means Aus teams play Aus teams again - and that should be conducted entirely in a domestic comp, home and away, with no input from NZ.

TT only need be Aus v Kiwi teams. You could even start these games early - eg Anzac Day weekend would be a great time for TT Round 1, even if it was much earlier than the rest of the comp.

I think you are right though. Either that or a full blown home and away TT, which would be a larger error.