What is wrong with the Tahs

[Braveheart81]

. I think that some posters fail to recognise just how much pain the genuine Waratah supporter felt on Friday night.

Friday night was shattering. I completely agree.

We sat there in the same stunned silence at the end of the game as we did against the Reds in round 1 while everyone around us got up and left.

 

[waratahjesus]

I think what people are asking is why are we not signing our best juniors - Hooper wasn't an unknown he was a schoolboy star the Tah's should have had him sown up as soon as he left school, it is interesting that two great young backrowers from the Northern Beaches have been allowed to move to the brumbies (George Smith and Hooper) before they had played a single senior game of football (or colts for that matter) - in the case of Smith the Tahs went with Waugh - some might argue they did okay but I suspect in their heart of hearts they know they got the poorer in that deal - int eh case of Hooper who did the Tahs take in his place - please dont tell me McCutheon?????

The organsisation needs a dramatic overhaul - Farr-Jones coming as Chairman is great and the volume of crownie consumption at Board meetings will at least double but they need to start letting some people off the boat who have been getting a free ride for far to long.

Well, I'm no expert on hooper, so someone might fill in the blanks, but he needed a total shoulder recon I thought and the Tahs looked past him to get a healthy player on the books.

Your point about Waugh only strengthens my point. The Tahs don't have the opportunity to sign everyone, that notion is dead and buried, they have to make calls constantly as to who th keep, develop, sign, resign. They don't get an advantage out if it, they have the same ability as every other team. It's easy to stand years on and say that player was better than that player, but your not watching 17/18 year olds running around and predicting there development. It's always a tough call.

My point still stands, being in the largest player pool doesn't automatically mean pick of the litter. Every club has scouts and state v state is a thing if the past.

 

[Bruce Ross]

For those who don't watch the Europe club scene as closely as the likes of LG, Qwerty, etc. here is an example of Leinster's backs play from this year HEC Quarter Final against Cardiff Blues.

It's not just the pace and precision that's impressive, but the number of support and decoy runners and then the angles they run. Compare this to the Tahs backline and they are poles apart. I'd love to see the Tahs backline perform even somewhere close to this.

Leinster do this week in week out

Does Leinster actually come up against defence as abysmal as that of the Cardiff Blues "week in week out"? Having said that, they certainly display vastly more creativity than what us long suffering 'Tahs supporters have learnt to endure "week in week out".
.

 

[RedsHappy]

For those who don't watch the Europe club scene as closely as the likes of LG, Qwerty, etc. here is an example of Leinster's backs play from this year HEC Quarter Final against Cardiff Blues. It's not just the pace and precision that's impressive, but the number of support and decoy runners and then the angles they run. Compare this to the Tahs backline and they are poles apart. I'd love to see the Tahs backline perform even somewhere close to this. Leinster do this week in week out and LG should be able to confirm that it doesn't make much difference if it's the household international stars or the 2nd and 3rd string playing in the Pro12 they play the same way at the same pace. That's the difference a decent backs coach can make to a team and it's about time the Tahs had one so the backs can regularly back up the good work done by the pack rather than undoing it with sloppy & predictable play.

Bardon - may I say, you really do post a lot of quality per inch here. Fantastic, thanks. And from the land of my forebears (1820s to Aus, from County Tyrone).

The situation of the Tahs backline that you, Hawko and others post so powerfully on was fully known, observed, worried over, and commented on extensively here in 2011 (and prior). Very, very clearly better back line player development, (in some cases) selection and general back line coaching were all required at the Tahs of this current era.

But the chronicle of future failure foretold was in the call the Waratahs (or NSW RU) made in 2011 in dealing with this for 2012. It was clear in 2010-11 that Bowen was not as capable and/or experienced as was required as back line coach in this current period's S15. But instead of adopting a hard-headed, gutsy approach of radical change and a major coaching talent upgrade (entailing the admission of some form of underperformance up the management line), the fateful and compromising decision was taken to (a) leave Bowen in place but (b) in some vague and unusual manner supplement him with a 'senior mentor-type' coach with Gaffney (a coach that my NH mates last year said just as you do that he was absolutely beyond his best and should be writing books maybe, but surely not coaching at top level). So, the structure was of Bowen being somehow part responsible for the Tahs backs, and Gaffney, 'mentoring' Bowen, would be also part responsible. One way or another, the two would 'do the job together'.

The depressing results of this odd, half-change/half-not/young-and-old combination (which sort of mirrors the whacko structure Deans has adopted of himself as backs coach, aided by a 'skills coach', and with similar poor results) are there for all you quality posters to see. I need not repeat what you have all reported in terms of the 2012 Tahs' back line coherence, technical ability, set plays, and general output.

Looking over this, the manifest flaw in this whole set-up lies right back with Tahs' senior management (and Board as applicable) in not being decisive, bold and strategic enough to change the whole structure and pursue a genuinely world-class backs coach of excellent, proven recent results and install him in NSW, even if a premium salary was required. The Tahs' senior management appear incapable of facing harsh realities and dealing with them decisively to find a permanent cure vs blame-suppressing compromises and half-solutions that betray IMO a lack of courage and calibre in leadership of the kind this great rugby franchise deserves.

 

[Bardon]

Does Leinster actually come up against defence as abysmal as that of the Cardiff Blues "week in week out"? Having said that, they certainly display vastly more creativity than what us long suffering 'Tahs supporters have learnt to endure "week in week out".
.

Bruce the Blues generally have a good defence and Leinster have done similar to the best defences in Europe over the part 4-5 years. Some of their breaks can certainly be put down to poor defence from the opposition but other times it's just the sheer slickness of their attack that creates gaps in defences that are normally very soild.

With the way the Tahs backs attack it wouldn't take the best defence in the world to keep them out. I was a long suffering Leinster support during the years when we just didn't show up on when needed so I know exactly how frustrating it is. Also I know that the way Leinster are now can't last forever but I'm enjoying it while it last and for my sins I've become a Tahs support to even things out a bit, guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

[Bardon]

Bardon - may I say, you really do post a lot of quality per inch here. Fantastic, thanks. And from the land of my forebears (1820s to Aus, from County Tyrone).

The situation of the Tahs backline that you, Hawko and others post so powerfully on was fully known, observed, worried over, and commented on extensively here in 2011 (and prior). Very, very clearly better back line player development, (in some cases) selection and general back line coaching were all required at the Tahs of this current era.

But the chronicle of future failure foretold was in the call the Waratahs (or NSW RU) made in 2011 in dealing with this for 2012. It was clear in 2010-11 that Bowen was not as capable and/or experienced as was required as back line coach in this current period's S15. But instead of adopting a hard-headed, gutsy approach of radical change and a major coaching talent upgrade (entailing the admission of some form of underperformance up the management line), the fateful and compromising decision was taken to (a) leave Bowen in place but (b) in some vague and unusual manner supplement him with a 'senior mentor-type' coach with Gaffney (a coach that my NH mates last year said just as you do that he was absolutely beyond his best and should be writing books maybe, but surely not coaching at top level). So, the structure was of Bowen being somehow part responsible for the Tahs backs, and Gaffney, 'mentoring' Bowen, would be also part responsible. One way or another, the two would 'do the job together'.

The depressing results of this odd, half-change/half-not/young-and-old combination (which sort of mirrors the whacko structure Deans has adopted of himself as backs coach, aided by a 'skills coach', and with similar poor results) are there for all you quality posters to see. I need not repeat what you have all reported in terms of the 2012 Tahs' back line coherence, technical ability, set plays, and general output.

Looking over this, the manifest flaw in this whole set-up lies right back with Tahs' senior management (and Board as applicable) in not being decisive, bold and strategic enough to change the whole structure and pursue a genuinely world-class backs coach of excellent, proven recent results and install him in NSW, even if a premium salary was required. The Tahs' senior management appear incapable of facing harsh realities and dealing with them decisively to find a permanent cure vs blame-suppressing compromises and half-solutions that betray IMO a lack of courage and calibre in leadership of the kind this great rugby franchise deserves.

Completely agree with you RH, especially on the bolded section. I've said before that one of the major flaws of the professional era in Rugby was the fact that only the players and to an extent the coaches became professional. The senior management, board members, heads of unions, IRB etc. are all still largely relics of the amateur days.

There needs to be a 2nd wave of professionalism in these areas of the game to avoid such mismanagement. Rugby needs more people who know how to plan and who can see the long term benefits of investing in grass roots, academies, schools, feeder competitions, infrastructure and being innovative about growing the numbers of supports and participants in Rugby. People who realise how important it is to have quality people in key roles rather than the cheapest option who'll allow room in their budget for an extra junket trip or two during in the for the old boys network.

 

[MrMouse]

Completely agree with you RH, especially on the bolded section. I've said before that one of the major flaws of the professional era in Rugby was the fact that only the players and to an extent the coaches became professional. The senior management, board members, heads of unions, IRB etc. are all still largely relics of the amateur days.

There needs to be a 2nd wave of professionalism in these areas of the game to avoid such mismanagement. Rugby needs more people who know how to plan and who can see the long term benefits of investing in grass roots, academies, schools, feeder competitions, infrastructure and being innovative about growing the numbers of supports and participants in Rugby. People who realise how important it is to have quality people in key roles rather than the cheapest option who'll allow room in their budget for an extra junket trip or two during in the for the old boys network.

Bardon for Board. RH you prepare the arm bands, I'll distribute them.

Can you imagine the NSW Rugby board with Bruce as Chair, ably assisted by Bardon? Oh, the joy!

 

[MrMouse]

PS as the bloke who suggested electing you I hope for at least one junket. I'm not part of any old boys network so it'll be cheap!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Completely agree with you RH, especially on the bolded section. I've said before that one of the major flaws of the professional era in Rugby was the fact that only the players and to an extent the coaches became professional. The senior management, board members, heads of unions, IRB etc. are all still largely relics of the amateur days.

There needs to be a 2nd wave of professionalism in these areas of the game to avoid such mismanagement. Rugby needs more people who know how to plan and who can see the long term benefits of investing in grass roots, academies, schools, feeder competitions, infrastructure and being innovative about growing the numbers of supports and participants in Rugby. People who realise how important it is to have quality people in key roles rather than the cheapest option who'll allow room in their budget for an extra junket trip or two during in the for the old boys network.

Our unions need to wake up to the fact that all players great and small come from juniors somewhere.



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[Lindommer]

(Abbott) was a...prop...

That says it all really. And we're contemplating putting a prop in the Prime Minister's position.


The world's gone mad.

 

[fatprop]

That says it all really. And we're contemplating putting a prop in the Prime Minister's position.


The world's gone mad.

far superior option to having one of the cheer leaders

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That says it all really. And we're contemplating putting a prop in the Prime Minister's position.


The world's gone mad.

Rather a prop than a winger

 

[Linus]

Rather a prop than a winger

Name the last head coach who played in the back line? I think there has been a focus on forward head coaches, perhaps that is why Deans cops so much.

It's easy to brush wingers just because they have hair. I have placed my head in enough scrums to know that the view is a whole lot better out in the sunshine to work out work is going on.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Our unions need to wake up to the fact that all players great and small come from juniors somewhere.

I think they've got enough on their plate at present, IS, in distancing themselves from the HSU to worry about juniors.
.

 

[Lee Grant]

Bardon - may I say, you really do post a lot of quality per inch here.

Understated that, RH.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Name the last head coach who played in the back line? I think there has been a focus on forward head coaches, perhaps that is why Deans cops so much.

It's easy to brush wingers just because they have hair. I have placed my head in enough scrums to know that the view is a whole lot better out in the sunshine to work out work is going on.

Wayne Smith (2000-2001)
Sir Clive Woodward
Alan Jones

In another era my father, who was a winger, used to say: "all the shit finishes up on the wing"

 

[Lee Grant]

I bet Kafe has his whiteboard - or Star Wars finger pointing - board out tonight on The Rugby Club and questions why the Tahs don't do more moves like the one that lead to the Horne try against the Bulls.

The ball was passed to Barnes who was super flat, and he passed the pill flat in front of two moving players who drew the attention of tacklers - to Horne who had ran to a gap that was already there - and if it wasn't, he could have swerved in his run to find it before he received the ball.

You had it all: the two passes were flat because Barnes was flat, and Horne received it flat - and there was deception from two players between Barnes and Horne.

Beautiful. Simple. 7 points.
.

 

[Hawko]

I bet Kafe has his whiteboard - or Star Wars finger pointing - board out tonight on The Rugby Club and questions why the Tahs don't do more moves like the one that lead to the Horne try against the Bulls.

The ball was passed to Barnes who was super flat, and he passed the pill flat in front of two moving players who drew the attention of tacklers - to Horne who had ran to a gap that was already there - and if it wasn't, he could have swerved in his run to find it before he received the ball.

You had it all: the two passes were flat because Barnes was flat, and Horne received it flat - and there was deception from two players between Barnes and Horne.

Beautiful. Simple. 7 points.
.

I reckon you are right, but I doubt that much time will be spent on why such backline work does not happen all the time. It was a thing of beauty, but not to be repeated all night. Why it is not the modus operandi of the backline for the whole game is beyond me. If you can do something once it should be easier the second time - this is the concept called practise.

Just to clarify: I don't mean that same move run over and over without variation. I mean the flat fast attack with dummy running and pass-loop play. (See Mark to Lloyd to Gary to Glen to David in all their perrmutations and combinations.)

 

[Lee Grant]

I don't mean that same move run over and over without variation.

Exactly - just the principles should be there, like the elements you mentioned and the things in the Horne try move: passing and receiving flat to the tackle line, running to space before you get the ball, fixing opponents by deception - plus a dozen other things.

These elements should be broken down and practised all the time, then some should be combined in set moves which should be practised also - not the same ones every week and taking note of which works best against which type of opponent and giving them more of a run than the others that the players had trouble in executing.
.

 

[Linus]

Wayne Smith (2000-2001)
Sir Clive Woodward
Alan Jones

In another era my father, who was a winger, used to say: "all the shit finishes up on the wing"

Nice trio IS. RWC, Grand Slam and a Kiwi.