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What is wrong with the Tahs

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I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Good point, I was thinking exactly the same thing when sautia scored.
No way would the Tahs have given him a run.
We have the young guys, but don't have the nuts to give them a run.
 

CTPE

Nev Cottrell (35)
They need to do something about that (recent) history and, like warragamba dam, it's a massive catchment but they think they can ignore it and it will look after itself.....they need a desal plant


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Owning the lolly shop can be much more difficult than popping in to buy the odd sweet.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
As I postualted on the previous page the Tahs have consistantly selected the wrong people or have done something to degrade the quality of good ones they get ala Barnes.

For instance in 2009 when the Reds played the Stormers Barnes kicked the crap out of them with accurate raking kicks and pinned them in their own half. Fast forward to 2012 and Barnes kicks were innefectual and aimless. as I posted in the game thread 7% were effective kicks in the first half and a massive 32% in the second from my reckoning. Check the game thread for my stats and how I came to assess them.

My point is the Tahs obviously went in with a conservative game plan to kick the Stormers into submission, which is fine if you have the players to do it. On the evidence that we have seen for the last ....... year the Tahs do not have either the players for this game plan or the execution or possibly both. On the last page I suggested that the Tahs have a fixation with selecting "attacking/running" players or players that are perceived as being of this type. They then impose a "conservative/kicking" game on these players and so many then bemoan the "kicking" game of the Tahs. We should be voiciferously denoucing the lack of quality execution and the selection of the wrong players. On the last page I posted two players in the last 5-6 years that have gone overseas without ever getting a look at the Tahs despite dominating, totally, the Shute Shield. Chris Malone and Dan Parkes. Both players were rightly seen as conservative kicking type 10s, though instances can be shown of them effectively running the ball. IMO just what the Tahs need at 10 if they want to play a kick and dominate game plan. Instead the Tahs for years have selected "running" types (or those perceived as running types) perhaps due to public/board pressure and then imposed the conservative game which they do not execute well.

It isn't just in the 10s that the problem resides, the selection of the whole side from the very start has to be questioned. Where are the effective chasers like Bryan Habana for instance. The Tahs rarely chase effectively, they did against the stormers on one occassion, for a turnover to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). A second resulting in a penalty could be argued but Habana had a brain snap and hesitated instead of kicking or offloading the bal andgot himself isolated instead of taking either of the former options which he had plenty of time to do so.

Have a very quick look at the other franchises and you will see a plethora of players that the Tahs overlooked to sign big names, players who have excelled and in some cases truly played themseleves into test contention (if anybody but Mad Robbie was selecting). Names like Pyle, Neville, Jones, Batye, White, Phipps, even Sheehan, Inman. Where are our young uns coming through as others have asked? Where is Peterson - same age as Batye and more experienced in terms of Super training than any of those previsouly mentioned who are shining. Other players have excelled after leaving the Tahs playing far better than they ever did in the selected position, and here I will name Sidey and Palmer (though great wraps were given him for his set peice work he has developed far more in the loose this year). I will also name Kurtley Beale as a far better player at the Rebels than he was at the Tahs. Simply because at the Rebels Beale has lost the tendancy to attempt everything himself and is looking like the player so many said he was. I will admit to being a very large doubter of him after so many years at the Tahs and so many aimless, low percentage chips and grubbers. In three weeks at the Rebels he has shown more than in 5 years at the Tahs.

The questions Tahs fans should be asking is WHY? Forget asking the coaches or the board I am totally convinced that both work to KPIs that will judge this year a qualified success, qualified by their unfortunate injury record (which will include Elsom and Vickerman who they signed knowing they were long term injured and had no runs on the board) and so many narrow losses. They miss the point, they have played like busted arses and, ignored all the great examples around them and have lost another year to change the direction of the Tahs. Instead we see the Brumbies and Rebels improving far beyond anything we have seen at a relatively stable Waratahs side over the same period. Again Tahs fans should ask why?

I think I have answered the questions myself in a few ways before and did so last year as well, and perhaps the year before that. I will not ramble further.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Ah yes, I have just realised the Tahs have slipped to 4th in the Oz conference with the Rebels bonus point win in Perth if I am not mistaken? I wonder how that sits with the KPIs.
 

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David Codey (61)
One interesting point you mentioned was how KB (Kurtley Beale) is playing better away from the Tahs.
Why are the Tahs a graveyard for 10's? Who has played well there?
When BB was signed I was quite excited, yet IMO he was more effective with the Reds than he ever has been for the Tah's. he also plays better in Gold than in Blue.
Why?
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Ah yes, I have just realised the Tahs have slipped to 4th in the Oz conference with the Rebels bonus point win in Perth if I am not mistaken? I wonder how that sits with the KPIs.
You can't believe results would be part of the KPI's?
They clearly have not been for years.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
When an organisation brings in too many KPIs the ones that are truly important can be lost in all the noise. I think there are too many "positives" for the coaches and decision makers at the Tahs to cling to and this covers up the bad results.

Obviously results are important. There are some scenarios where they are maybe less important, say when the team is in a period of transition and it can be seen they are building a new team and making progress. This clearly isn't the case at the Tahs although I'd argue that maybe it should be.
 
L

Linus

Guest
Mate if they had necks, they weren't front rowers.[/quote]

Ok so it was where the shoulders stopped and the head began. I'd agree that the hooker is the brains of the show.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Expect no improvement unless the Tahs have a massive crisis with totally inexcusable, unexaplainable collapse. The continued head in the clouds denial from Foley proves this. He fails to see that execution and selection as I have stated above a prime causes for the problems. He will be given canon fodder for his views to dismiss all cirtique after the weekend saw the Reds kick as much as the Tahs and get good reviews while the Tahs are criticised for kicking.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-wretched-season-just-yet-20120520-1yyzu.html
The first article shows the mind set of Foley.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...nd-illdisciplined-display-20120520-1yyzs.html

The fuel to excuse and reinforce their midset that they are criticised for any kicking. Foolish and simplistic jouranlism when the real issue of accuracy and effectiveness should be targetted along with selection issues.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
whats wrong with foleys mindset?
your opinion doesnt make Foleys wrong.
he said he was frustrated & dissapointed. that they failed to control the things they could at certain times and that he was proud of them.
how is his head in the clouds?
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
I read that too, Gnostic. It was depressing. In my opinion, no one with that attitude will ever build a true contender.

It is important to recognize good elements of play and to determine what can be built upon. There is a stark difference, however, between doing that and whitewashing the truth.
 

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David Codey (61)
whats wrong with foleys mindset?
your opinion doesnt make Foleys wrong.
he said he was frustrated & dissapointed. that they failed to control the things they could at certain times and that he was proud of them.
how is his head in the clouds?
He is a spin doctor, he says the same things every week.
we did some good things
people bag us too much for kicking when the stats don't support that.
we didn't understand some of the refs decisions.
.....when you keep doing the same things, you will continue to get the same results
 

Torn Hammy

Johnnie Wallace (23)
I watched Beale play yesterday and for 80 minutes I saw the finesse and total confidence that he had as a prodigiously talented schoolboy.

That we rarely, if ever, saw this at the Tahs is at the heart of what is going wrong. Maybe, as he professed, it wasn't the money that lured him to the Rebels.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Beale was superb in his last season at the Tahs. He was the best fullback in the competition and was devestating on the counter-attack. I don't think you can say that he didn't play to his ability at that point.

You also need to remember that he is only 23. He should still be getting better.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
whats wrong with foleys mindset?
your opinion doesnt make Foleys wrong.
he said he was frustrated & dissapointed. that they failed to control the things they could at certain times and that he was proud of them.
how is his head in the clouds?

Your mate in your avatar is proud of his team for executing in such a poor manner, if you wish to dispute the execution theory post me some stats and analysis as I did in the game thread. Contrary to Foley who has stated that his side is unfairly criticised for kicking, I am not critical of kicking when it is done with purpose and is well executed (see Rebels kicks from Gerrard and Beale and approx 60% of Reds kicks against the Lions). He has been frustrated and disappointed all season and continues to "talk it up".

His head is in the clouds because he obviously believes the Tahs are close to beating any of the better sides. They are 10th on the ladder and 4th in the Oz conference. They truly didn't look like beating the Stormers at any stage in that game. Other sides have similar injury concerns and yet continue to succeed and execute a well structure game plan. Case in point the Brumbies kicked more than the Tahs this weekend if I counted right with the Ponies (but I only watched that game once so somebody else will have to post the stats for them) yet they pressured their kicks and and were generally effective, all with their third string flyhalf. The Tahs had their number 1 flyhalf their number 2 half (IMO in Foley) available and still they could not execute. His head is in the cloud because if he doesn't admit the problem he cannot fix the issue, continuing the same old excuses with the media and privately admitting the problems aslo will no longer cut it. He wont have the luxury of even a reduced fan base when he and the Tahs return from the Republic if they continue and it isn't because they kick.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Gnostic - with all due respect I'm not sure your able o see past your own opinion to objectively discuss what foley said.

He said he was proud of the team and in saying this I'm sure you could go on for 40 paragraphs about how out of touch he is, but you fail to put the same emphasis on the fact he correctly identified the same problems nearly everyone else did. It's fine if you don't like him or want change, I have no actual problem with your opinion but your negativity seems to be making your points a bit over the top.

Do you want him to publicly rip into the players and say there shit, cos based on the effort there not, the boys may be in 10th but this season has been a game of inches not one of not competing. I have a feeling even if Kepu had held onto that ball and the Tahs had got home you would still have seen nothing good with it.

Foley is a quiet guy, I've seen him speak on football and I've had a few chats with him. While I have no doubts his laid back way might coe across differently in pressure situations such as the one he is in, but when you hear him speak about rugby he has a heap of passion and from a few players I've spoken to this year, he isn't afraid to rip people a new one, he just chooses not to do it in the media.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I agree with WJ. I don't want a coach who rips into his players in the post match press conference. Play a straight bat and say you're disappointed and focus both on the positives and highlight the negatives.

If you rip into the players, do it at training behind closed doors. They're meant to be a team and part of that is not undermining each other in public. Most of the players who were poor would know that. I think Elsom is smart enough to realise that he had a poor game and made some stupid decisions costing the side penalties.

I am yet to be impressed with Foley but I think the jury can stay out until he has had another season at the helm. What happens in the offseason could be crucial. Foley was obviously a big fan of Elsom and a big reason he came to the Tahs. It is probably time to acknowledge that choice panned out poorly and cut him loose. He costs too much money not to be a star. Particularly when we have Dennis and Palu starting at 6 and 8. I also question whether he is the leader that is going to lead us to great things. There were glimpses against the Bulls, but that more than disappeared against the Stormers.

What happens with Vickerman is also going to be a key decision. We can't afford to have him on our books next season unless he is really going to be available for most of the season.

Realising that Bernard Foley needs to have a real crack at 10 and that maybe Barnes should be playing 12 or possibly 15 and not 10 is also critical in my opinion. I am a massive Berrick Barnes fan, but I don't think he is ever going to be a champion 10 in super rugby.
 
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