Waratahs 2021

[WorkingClassRugger]

Firstly . First post . So apologies if iv missed anything but I’m a big Shute shield fan and with nothing to do in 2020 I watched lots .
I believe these players were best in their position last year or have at least dominated Shute shield in periods .
Do you think the tahs backs are clearly better ?

9.Harrison Goddard Vs Jack Grant
10.Angus sinclaire /Rodney Iona Vs Will Harrison
11.James Turner vs James Ramm
12.Enoka Muliufu vs Tepai Morea
13.Tautalatasi Tasi vs Alex Newsome
14. Tyson Davis vs Jack Maddocks
15.Tim Clements Vs Mark Nawanqanitwaswe

9.I reckon Goddard is more complete player than grant and controls a game better . Shute 1

10.Sinclaire / Iona are definitely better controllers than Harrison at this stage - although Harrison clearly superior running game. Even

11 . Everyone will say Ramm better but why ? Turner has been leading try scorer in last 2 years in a weak team . Ramm got picked from obscurity and to be fair was good last year but struggling this year. I’l say even Shute 1 Tahs 0

12 . Enoka Muliufu is Tepai just with a bigger rugby pedigree and more powerful . Would be lot cheaper too. Shute 2 tahs 0

13.Someone tell me what Newsome is good at ? Great solid player . But Lasi is bloody hard to tackle , physical and has X factor . I’ll take Lasi shute 3 tahs 0

14.Maddocks clear winner . Although clearly erratic. Shute 3 tahs 1

15. Tim Clements has been best 15 last 2 years in Shute . Mark N (Nawaqanitawase) is amazing in air and can offload but can’t defend or take contact . I’ll take proven player Shute 4 Tahs 1


Sure lot of the tahs guys have a “upside “ but what about picking the best players now ?

Obviously in perfect world you would mix and match . But I just don’t see why these tahs players have been chosen over proven Shute Shield performers

Mate, I am an avid Shute watcher as well. Outside of Morea and maybe Newsome the Tahs guys are significantly better than the guys you've presented.

But I think there's a way to test you hypothesis. Have a series of games featuring the Tahs extended squad vs a SRU rep squad.

 

[7137]

A big concern is if we have to start paying big dollars just to recruit average players (or those who have never really dominated Super Rugby). Paying 400k for a 'big name' like Kyle Godwin or Ben Tapuai isn't going to make any difference at all- they need some real quality.

I'd feel a lot more confident in a team with Bernard Foley, Michael Hooper and any decent second row and backrower in it.

That’s why I suggested players who aren’t the big names, but are big on experience without being too old that they are going to be well past it. I don’t think a big star will help at all. I want some calm and mature players to provide some guidance. I don’t think anyone could suggest Sam Carter would not be a huge upgrade in the row, despite not being a star. Same for replacing Newsome with someone like English. I am adamant we need an established THP too.

 

[ShuteFan1]

Mate, I am an avid Shute watcher as well. Outside of Morea and maybe Newsome the Tahs guys are significantly better than the guys you've presented.

But I think there's a way to test you hypothesis. Have a series of games featuring the Tahs extended squad vs a SRU rep squad.

Interesting .
Jack grant was Catchpole medal winner in 2019 . So maybe fair but who was best halfback in 2020?
I’d argue also Jack grant has had best players around him for 2-3 years at Easts and yet to make a GF. Not entirely his fault sure but certainly not a tick

Will Harrison - super talented . Future star . But a 10s job is to control game not just kick goals and make linebreaks .
Sinclaire and Iona both can do that . Harrison to 15 ? And he can learn to control off senior player and have more time

Ramm- like I said great 2020 super season . So I’ll concede that . Will be interesting if he dominates if he comes back to Shute

Mark N (Nawaqanitawase) vs Clements . Mark simply has too many downsides . Clements , has won 2 premierships, runs hard and fast and is a tough bugger . But maybe a bit of a Newsome - Jack of all trades master of none

But like I said mix and match and you have a better team and rewarding players in own backyard

 

[dru]

Mate, I am an avid Shute watcher as well. Outside of Morea and maybe Newsome the Tahs guys are significantly better than the guys you've presented.

But I think there's a way to test you hypothesis. Have a series of games featuring the Tahs extended squad vs a SRU rep squad.

t's not like for like though WCR. Clearly we saw in the NRC that SRU is not up to Super, even if you selected the best of them. The question is whether the best of the SRU, given the same opportunity in a professional arrangement, whether those guys are better.

Right now it's a fair question I reckon.

 

[ShuteFan1]

Mate, I am an avid Shute watcher as well. Outside of Morea and maybe Newsome the Tahs guys are significantly better than the guys you've presented.

But I think there's a way to test you hypothesis. Have a series of games featuring the Tahs extended squad vs a SRU rep squad.

Game of Shute barbarians vs current tahs would be a good game and forget extended squad . Give barbarians 4 weeks fulltime training and I reckon you have a competitive game. Baby tahs would be under some pressure

 

[7137]

Shute Sheild is not what it used to be. The quality is a level and some below Super Rugby. Even Super Rugby AU

 

[ShuteFan1]

Shute Sheild is not what it used to be. The quality is a level and some below Super Rugby. Even Super Rugby AU

Agree just watched the Australian Championship game
However if you dominate Shute Shield I think there has to be some sort of reward. Or we continue to pick the talented kids who "may" come good

 

[ShuteFan1]

Shute Sheild is not what it used to be. The quality is a level and some below Super Rugby. Even Super Rugby AU

So based on that when the Super players come back to shute shield they should dominate . Did anyone in particular stand out for you end of last last year?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Game of Shute barbarians vs current tahs would be a good game and forget extended squad . Give barbarians 4 weeks fulltime training and I reckon you have a competitive game. Baby tahs would be under some pressure

I actually have what I think would be an interesting idea. Perhaps we could expand this kind of game. To have two teams from Queensland, one from the ACT, Melbourne and Perth. They could then play each other to determine who is the best. We could called it something the the National Rugby Championship or something of the like.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Firstly . First post . So apologies if iv missed anything but I’m a big Shute shield fan and with nothing to do in 2020 I watched lots .
I believe these players were best in their position last year or have at least dominated Shute shield in periods .
Do you think the tahs backs are clearly better ?

9.Harrison Goddard Vs Jack Grant
10.Angus sinclaire /Rodney Iona Vs Will Harrison
11.James Turner vs James Ramm
12.Enoka Muliufu vs Tepai Morea
13.Tautalatasi Tasi vs Alex Newsome
14. Tyson Davis vs Jack Maddocks
15.Tim Clements Vs Mark Nawanqanitwaswe

9.I reckon Goddard is more complete player than grant and controls a game better . Shute 1

10.Sinclaire / Iona are definitely better controllers than Harrison at this stage - although Harrison clearly superior running game. Even

11 . Everyone will say Ramm better but why ? Turner has been leading try scorer in last 2 years in a weak team . Ramm got picked from obscurity and to be fair was good last year but struggling this year. I’l say even Shute 1 Tahs 0

12 . Enoka Muliufu is Tepai just with a bigger rugby pedigree and more powerful . Would be lot cheaper too. Shute 2 tahs 0

13.Someone tell me what Newsome is good at ? Great solid player . But Lasi is bloody hard to tackle , physical and has X factor . I’ll take Lasi shute 3 tahs 0

14.Maddocks clear winner . Although clearly erratic. Shute 3 tahs 1

15. Tim Clements has been best 15 last 2 years in Shute . Mark N (Nawaqanitawase) is amazing in air and can offload but can’t defend or take contact . I’ll take proven player Shute 4 Tahs 1


Sure lot of the tahs guys have a “upside “ but what about picking the best players now ?

Obviously in perfect world you would mix and match . But I just don’t see why these tahs players have been chosen over proven Shute Shield performers

We definitely should be looking hard at shute shield to see if can unearth some cheap gems to supplement

 

[Derpus]

There should absolutely be a path from SS to the Waratahs. If you are good enough you are good enough.

Different sport, but Jamie Vardy comes to mind. From Tradie in non-league to one of the top EPL strikers of the last 5 years.

 

[7137]

There should absolutely be a path from SS to the Waratahs.

How do you think Edmed and Grant for example got there?

 

[Kenny Powers]

There should absolutely be a path from SS to the Waratahs.

What and not recruit from league or overrated early developer schoolboy rockstars who don’t believe defensive work is part of their job description.

Also if you recruited from Shute Shield how would all those recruiters and development pathway people at the Waratahs justify their roles?

 

[ShuteFan1]

How do you think Edmed and Grant for example got there?

Almost the exception now
How about Robertson ?( reserve half played colts last year in a superstar team ), Harrison ( dominated colts in a team of superstars), Tepai ( obvious) , Walton ( contracted before Shute debut and has he ever dominated shute shield ?), Mark N (Nawaqanitawase) ( plucked from 20s / 2nd grade), Ramm ( how many first grade games ?) , Ben doneldson ( 20s star and colts star), Tristian Riley ( how many grade games?)
Thats 8 backs out of the 15 in the squad we have picked in the "hope " they will be good .

I would suggest our balance is a little wrong

 

[ShuteFan1]

I actually have what I think would be an interesting idea. Perhaps we could expand this kind of game. To have two teams from Queensland, one from the ACT, Melbourne and Perth. They could then play each other to determine who is the best. We could called it something the the National Rugby Championship or something of the like.

I think we were suggesting more of a hypothetical game to see how the current baby tahs would go against a team of players that have actually played well at senior rugby level. But sure bring back the NRC debate . Il check the threads to see if anyone has touched base on this yet

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think we were suggesting more of a hypothetical game to see how the current baby tahs would go against a team of players that have actually played well at senior rugby level. But sure bring back the NRC debate . Il check the threads to see if anyone has touched base on this yet

It's simple as far as I'm concerned. I think scrapping the NRC is a mistake. It has proven to be a fertile breeding ground for talent. They should be looking at every avenue to maintain it. If that means allowing the likes of the SRU to have a rep squad involved I'm happy for that to occur.

The idea of a SS rep squad playing a full strength Tahs is unrealistic in terms of schedule. Though this year there won't be many Tahs on Wallaby duties. I would like to see it maintained. But if it is to fall away I would hope we see some kind of rep calendat involved. Sydney could have a North Harbour and a South Harbour team. Brisbane similar but with the river. Canberra can have the Kookaburras. Melbourne and Perth could do similar.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Almost the exception now
How about Robertson ?( reserve half played colts last year in a superstar team ), Harrison ( dominated colts in a team of superstars), Tepai ( obvious) , Walton ( contracted before Shute debut and has he ever dominated shute shield ?), Mark N (Nawaqanitawase) ( plucked from 20s / 2nd grade), Ramm ( how many first grade games ?) , Ben doneldson ( 20s star and colts star), Tristian Riley ( how many grade games?)
Thats 8 backs out of the 15 in the squad we have picked in the "hope " they will be good .

I would suggest our balance is a little wrong

Great post and reminds me of an interview I heard over summer regarding selectors philosophy regarding the Australian Cricket.

Basically in a period when Australian Cricket was not travelling well the selectors had a ‘youth policy’ which translated to no debutants over the age of 24. When they moved those selectors on and with new selectors they just selected the best available regardless of age Australian cricket results improved.

Appreciate that the physical demands of cricket are less but I think rugby could learn from that example.

Let’s select on proven ability not on schoolboy potential.

 

[ShuteFan1]

It's simple as far as I'm concerned. I think scrapping the NRC is a mistake. It has proven to be a fertile breeding ground for talent. They should be looking at every avenue to maintain it. If that means allowing the likes of the SRU to have a rep squad involved I'm happy for that to occur.

The idea of a SS rep squad playing a full strength Tahs is unrealistic in terms of schedule. Though this year there won't be many Tahs on Wallaby duties. I would like to see it maintained. But if it is to fall away I would hope we see some kind of rep calendat involved. Sydney could have a North Harbour and a South Harbour team. Brisbane similar but with the river. Canberra can have the Kookaburras. Melbourne and Perth could do similar.

Just to reiterate the Shute Shield Barbarians was a hypothetical suggestion but personally would love to see it but im sure the Waratahs would not like that because there is too big of risk in case they lost.

NRC failed twice now but im sure 3rd time is the charm . Plus ARU has money to burn so sure lets go again

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Just to reiterate the Shute Shield Barbarians was a hypothetical suggestion but personally would love to see it but im sure the Waratahs would not like that because there is too big of risk in case they lost.

NRC failed twice now but im sure 3rd time is the charm . Plus ARU has money to burn so sure lets go again

Did it fail? I'm currently watching a game littered with players that emerged through it. Same for last night. Considering it was cost neutral and has produced a generation of young players I'd say it was very successful. They only groups that failed to take advantage of it or had any issues with it were the Tahs and the SS clubs.

Losing it will hurt the development of talent long term unless we see some kind of proper Super Rugby reserve competition emerge. I think it should be maintained in some form. Potentially tweaked to become a representative structure. With two teams selected from club Rugby in both Sydney and Brisbane and a team from each of Canberra, Melbourne and Perth. Players would need to play club Rugby in order to be selected so you would see pro players return.

 

[ShuteFan1]

Did it fail? I'm currently watching a game littered with players that emerged through it. Same for last night. Considering it was cost neutral and has produced a generation of young players I'd say it was very successful. They only groups that failed to take advantage of it or had any issues with it were the Tahs and the SS clubs.

Losing it will hurt the development of talent long term unless we see some kind of proper Super Rugby reserve competition emerge. I think it should be maintained in some form. Potentially tweaked to become a representative structure. With two teams selected from club Rugby in both Sydney and Brisbane and a team from each of Canberra, Melbourne and Perth. Players would need to play club Rugby in order to be selected so you would see pro players return.

Well it is no longer here so I am guessing it failed on some sort of level otherwise it would be continuing .
Also do you think those players still would of emerged if they were playing in there relevant club competitions? I guess we will never know .

Either way discussing the pros and cons of NRC was never the intention of my original post .
NRC or no NRC super rugby players should have to prove themselves somewhere outside of colts and junior representative teams in order to play super rugby .
Note: there will be the occasional exception - Kurtley Beale , James Oconner , David Pocock to name a few