Waratahs 2021

[John S]

The Brumbies were made up of mostly NSW rejects initially. Those deemed not good enough early in their careers. Same happens today and for the most part they never return. Recognising talent is not now, and has never been, a strength of NSW rugby.

SO how do we fix it? Is it a cultural thing, that the selectors are beholden to their Schoolboys/SS mates that they refuse to look elsewhere? Or is it just that there is a fair amount of talent in NSW coming through, and the selectors have just historically kept making the same dumb 50/50 calls - where the talent they picked went nowhere, and the talent ignored has taken off at other clubs?

 

[Froggy]

This concept that the Brumbies were made up of Tahs rejects May have had some (and only some) credibility early on, but to trot out that line now has no credibility at all. The reality is that winning teams are the preference of the better players, because being in a winning team gives you the best chance of higher honours. That used to be really obvious in club rugby back in the day with Randwick, and these days with SU.

Now, I'm not arguing for a minute that there aren't cultural or recruitment problems at the Tahs, in fact they are staring us in the face right now, but please don't anyone trot out the idea that the Brumbies only get the Tahs rejects.

On the issue of Rodger Davis, no he isn't responsible for for day-to-day management or directing the coach, but he is supposedly our leader. In times of crisis, leaders lead, don't disappear. ScoMo learned that by disappearing for the bushfires, and took the lead with the pandemic. Davis didn't get that memo! And when things go to shit, while the leader may not be directly at fault, he/she takes responsibility, that's how it works. If any company had taken the trajectory that the Tahs have under Davis, the chairman would be long gone.

 

[Jimmyjam]

SO how do we fix it? Is it a cultural thing, that the selectors are beholden to their Schoolboys/SS mates that they refuse to look elsewhere? Or is it just that there is a fair amount of talent in NSW coming through, and the selectors have just historically kept making the same dumb 50/50 calls - where the talent they picked went nowhere, and the talent ignored has taken off at other clubs?

You can never really fix it because you never really know how good they are going to be until they are tested at Super Rugby level... I remember in the late 90s and early 2000's the Tahs made a couple of picks which could have gone either way.. Waugh over G Smith, both guns players but the tahs went for Waugh in this case because he was a bit ahead at the time being a year older. Mark Gerrard vs James Hilgendorf, once again both killing it at schoolboys but Gerrard kicked right on to the next level.. Some pan out and some don't. The problem is you have to make the call when they are still in nappies these days with 3 Aust franchises developing very few players plus the entire NRL, AFL etc all lurking to grab any kid who shows a whiff of talent. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Unfortunately the deepest pockets win.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

Recruiting isn't an exact science either right. Some player develop differently in different environments and some people move for opportunity. You never hear of the players that move to Canberra, Melbourne or Perth that don't make it. Due to the volume of players coming out of QLD and NSW the scouts in these states are going miss the mark. There is only a small margin for error and a finite number of contract they can offer.

 

[fatprop]

But Johnson is also cognisant of the burden the current group are carrying as they search for a much-needed win.
“For them, I know it’s hard. It’s not easy for young men to carry the can. But they have lost a lot of seniority, haven’t they, all at once. It’s not easy for young men to do that,” Johnson said.

“And it’s not easy in the big city where the biggest critics are. Which is fine. But it’s not easy.
“There is enough good talent on the pitch that will better Australian and Waratahs rugby for a long time.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...-ever-team-in-a-good-way-20210311-p579uh.html

 

[Braveheart81]

Waugh over G Smith, both guns players but the tahs went for Waugh in this case because he was a bit ahead at the time being a year older.

You can guarantee that if George Smith finished school a year earlier and Phil Waugh a year later it would have been the other way around.

 

[Joe Blow]

This concept that the Brumbies were made up of Tahs rejects May have had some (and only some) credibility early on, but to trot out that line now has no credibility at all. The reality is that winning teams are the preference of the better players, because being in a winning team gives you the best chance of higher honours. That used to be really obvious in club rugby back in the day with Randwick, and these days with SU.

Now, I'm not arguing for a minute that there aren't cultural or recruitment problems at the Tahs, in fact they are staring us in the face right now, but please don't anyone trot out the idea that the Brumbies only get the Tahs rejects.

On the issue of Rodger Davis, no he isn't responsible for for day-to-day management or directing the coach, but he is supposedly our leader. In times of crisis, leaders lead, don't disappear. ScoMo learned that by disappearing for the bushfires, and took the lead with the pandemic. Davis didn't get that memo! And when things go to shit, while the leader may not be directly at fault, he/she takes responsibility, that's how it works. If any company had taken the trajectory that the Tahs have under Davis, the chairman would be long gone.

No, its not the case now but initially it was and the Brumbies were not given much chance by punters in those first few seasons. There were limited Super Rugby places in Australia and the excess, mainly from NSW went there. It’s certainly not the case now with the Brumbies being the strongest Australian franchise by far of late.
However, we now see very good/elite players who came through the NSW system playing in Qld, Melbourne, WA, the ACT and overseas. With NSW in such a dire state there is obviously a massive recruitment issue and as big an issue with forward planning for the group.
I am NSW born and bred and played most of my rugby there as a kid, not at the levels we are discussing. I support all of the Australian sides and the Wallabies but I have no special affiliation with NSW. I’m sure there are many NSW natives who feel the same way due to the way the NSWRU has been run over the past 30 years.

 

[fatprop]

You can guarantee that if George Smith finished school a year earlier and Phil Waugh a year later it would have been the other way around.

And neither was crap

 

[Derpus]

No, its not the case now but initially it was and the Brumbies were not given much chance by punters in those first few seasons. There were limited Super Rugby places in Australia and the excess, mainly from NSW went there. It’s certainly not the case now with the Brumbies being the strongest Australian franchise by far of late.
However, we now see very good/elite players who came through the NSW system playing in Qld, Melbourne, WA, the ACT and overseas. With NSW in such a dire state there is obviously a massive recruitment issue and as big an issue with forward planning for the group.
I am NSW born and bred and played most of my rugby there as a kid, not at the levels we are discussing. I support all of the Australian sides and the Wallabies but I have no special affiliation with NSW. I’m sure there are many NSW natives who feel the same way due to the way the NSWRU has been run over the past 30 years.

No, no. Everything is fine. And, besides, we can't change anything anyway. As you were.

 

[fatprop]

No, its not the case now but initially it was and the Brumbies were not given much chance by punters in those first few seasons. There were limited Super Rugby places in Australia and the excess, mainly from NSW went there. It’s certainly not the case now with the Brumbies being the strongest Australian franchise by far of late.
However, we now see very good/elite players who came through the NSW system playing in Qld, Melbourne, WA, the ACT and overseas. With NSW in such a dire state there is obviously a massive recruitment issue and as big an issue with forward planning for the group.
I am NSW born and bred and played most of my rugby there as a kid, not at the levels we are discussing. I support all of the Australian sides and the Wallabies but I have no special affiliation with NSW. I’m sure there are many NSW natives who feel the same way due to the way the NSWRU has been run over the past 30 years.

Tahs development reminds me of the Eels in the NRL, massive player pool and the critics only ever remember those players who went elsewhere and succeeded.

The Tahs made the decision to sign a load Aus 21s to fill the gaps was sensible, the change of focus on SS is smart

But that doesn't fill the gaps of losing a shit ton of experience and it doesn't excuse the bad planning of not blooding players earlier and it doesn't excuse some bad decisions on not moving on some of that experience to make space in the squad and in the salary cap each year to refresh the squad

 

[Braveheart81]

However, we now see very good/elite players who came through the NSW system playing in Qld, Melbourne, WA, the ACT and overseas. With NSW in such a dire state there is obviously a massive recruitment issue and as big an issue with forward planning for the group.

It has definitely improved in the last couple of years.

The players of note that went through the NSW school system that we have missed out on are Nick Frost and Billy Pollard.

Pollard is somewhat understandable. The Tahs needed to recruit a bit older at hooker as they are needed to play now and we have Horton who was 3rd choice in his year and Cotton who was mostly second choice in his year.

 

[Joe Blow]

I dont know the ins and outs of the NSWRU but surely they should have a very competitive side all of the time pretty much. No excuse for what has happened now? Someone must have seen it coming?

 

[Slim 293]

It has definitely improved in the last couple of years.

The players of note that went through the NSW school system that we have missed out on are Nick Frost and Billy Pollard.

Pollard is somewhat understandable. The Tahs needed to recruit a bit older at hooker as they are needed to play now and we have Horton who was 3rd choice in his year and Cotton who was mostly second choice in his year.

And yet somehow they let Ed Craig slip through the cracks..........











I'll show myself out.

 

[Braveheart81]

I dont know the ins and outs of the NSWRU but surely they should have a very competitive side all of the time pretty much. No excuse for what has happened now? Someone must have seen it coming?

If they truly are spending a million dollars less on players than the other teams it isn't going to matter what the pipeline of players you have coming through is.

 

[bring back rucking]

It has definitely improved in the last couple of years.

The players of note that went through the NSW school system that we have missed out on are Nick Frost and Billy Pollard.

Pollard is somewhat understandable. The Tahs needed to recruit a bit older at hooker as they are needed to play now and we have Horton who was 3rd choice in his year and Cotton who was mostly second choice in his year.

They didn’t miss out on identification with nick frost, they chased him hard whilst he was at school. He had a meeting with Gibson and Rapp who pitched the tahs”system” to him and he chose to instead go to the crusaders Academy on less money as it would be better for his development. After 2 years he chose to come back to the Brumbies. His father was the ARU retention officer at the time he was in discussions with the tahs.... maybe he took his impartial advice.

I’m a tahs fan by the way so not having a dig, it just might be how it’s perceived by young players

 

[Braveheart81]

I agree with all that and realistically, the time they missed him was when he returned. As far as I'm concerned Australian rugby got some free development out of those two years at the Crusaders.

If we didn't make an offer to him when the Brumbies signed him then that was poor. If we needed to offer more than the Brumbies because he had a preference to go there then that is a sad (but not surprising) indictment on the Tahs and we should have offered more money.

 

[Blackadder]

In relation to the players that were let go the decision was made by Penney. He has said so himself.

Yes the tahs are under the cap but look at last year with the experienced players.

Did the Tahs win the comp? No. never looked like it
Did the Tahs win most of their games with all the experienced players? Hell no
Did the Tahs make the finals in a 5 team comp? Nope
Was the game plan working most of the year? No again.

Penney's game plan his problem.

Who recruited Sam Wykes? Penney
Who recruited an journeyman in Whetton? Penney
Who kept Whittaker as attack coach who has struggled since day one? Penney.

The team looks lost on the pitch in both attack and defence.

The Tahs didn't need to spend big money buying wallabies they needed to buy some older heads that weren't crap in the first place.

 

[Braveheart81]

In relation to the players that were let go the decision was made by Penney. He has said so himself.

Who recruited Sam Wykes? Penney
Who recruited an journeyman in Whetton? Penney
Who kept Whittaker as attack coach who has struggled since day one? Penney.
.

The Tahs didn't need to spend big money buying wallabies they needed to buy some older heads that weren't crap in the first place.

I'm not sure why you refuse to accept that these are all functions of the same issue. Money.

It seems pretty clear that the calibre of player we can afford with any experience are absolute journeymen.

We literally seem to be outside the budget of signing any player who can get a contract elsewhere.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

The Tahs didn't need to spend big money buying wallabies they needed to buy some older heads that weren't crap in the first place.

Like whom? Give us some names that would have accepted their bargain basement prices. I've never liked Wykes but he has been playing pro rugby for 13 years and fell into their lap with him moving back to Australia due to COVID.

 

[barbarian]

I'm unsure of the negotiations, but I'm annoyed we let Karmichael Hunt walk.