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Waratahs 2014

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Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I would certainly be interested in seeing how Kurtley went at 13.

I don't think he has the pace/size equation to play 13 plus in my view it is probably the hardest place to defend.
The fact that there are so many views about where he could play is testament to the fact that no one is convinced about him.
 

Ado Tornado

Allen Oxlade (6)
I doubt MC would even give a half thought to KB (Kurtley Beale) at 13. Not when there are excellent options in Horne and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

Assuming that Foley is the starting 10 it means that Folau and Beale are fighting over 2 spots - 15 and 12. So it becomes a matter of what kind of rugby MC wants to play. From this perspective I don't think it will be a matter of who plays fullback, but rather who plays 12.

Does MC want a ball playing inside centre? Or does he want a big hard running centre who can break a line and offload?

10 & 15 cover each others spots during a game anyway, I'm tipping it will be Izzy at 12. McKenzie has also made no secret of the fact that he wants a big hard ball runner at 12. Well, at least he said so until To'omua put his hand up.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
I will be extremely surprised if Cheika does not start Izzy in the centres this season. He is too good a footballer to be wasted at the back in what is, essentially, a defensive position. Plus he does not seem to me to have developed the rugby instinct to know when and how to inject himself at the set pieces. Put him in the centres, give him a clear role to play, and watch him dominate the best oppositions.

That is not to say that he is not a very good full-back, it is simply a recognition that he is likely to do more harm closer to the action.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
I will be extremely surprised if Cheika does not start Izzy in the centres this season. He is too good a footballer to be wasted at the back in what is, essentially, a defensive position. Plus he does not seem to me to have developed the rugby instinct to know when and how to inject himself at the set pieces. Put him in the centres, give him a clear role to play, and watch him dominate the best oppositions.

That is not to say that he is not a very good full-back, it is simply a recognition that he is likely to do more harm closer to the action.

I'm not disagreeing he would go well there. In fact the bloke is basically exactly what we want as a 13 in Australia. But that's only partially because big blokes of that bulk have lacked the other required skills to play 15.

However I fail to understand the logic he is wasted at 15. Racking my brain to think of a moment when I've had the thought, fuck I wish they could get Folau some ball out there.

I'd hazard he'd be further wasted and constrained in the 13 channel. Closer is necessarily better either. With his size and speed in the wider spaces he is much harder to stop as he can get to a defenders outside shoulder.
 

gowaratahs

Sydney Middleton (9)
If my memory serves me correctly, Folau got his chance at fullback in the early rounds (2nd round?) of 2013 out of necessity, insomuch that his transition was forced to be accelerated with injury or exclusion amongst the pre-Folau-signing expected 11-15ers from (Barnes, Horne and Turner - thus we needed a fullback more than we needed a winger). Kingston, Carter and Volavola also got some game time early in the season as Crawford was an unknown, and while Betham had torn it up in the NPC his participation was also questionable early on (for mine, a significant factor in the Tahs 2013 result was 2x early byes that had them falling away late in games they could've won - though I digress).

I'm excited by Folau with ball-in-hand or under a high ball, though cringe when he's tackled as he doesn't have the rugby awareness of how and when to turn and present - with turnovers often resulting. His defence is impeccable and often noteworthy when he's got no choice to make (ie. North in the 1st B&IL game) though he needs to be more assertive when an attacker is isolated and make contact before that attacker can stall for support (or kick inside) - this is only evident in RL on the 6th tackle and he appears to be not yet of the mindset that every tackle is the 6th tackle in RU. This is usually only an issue for the back 3.

However I believe that over time and experience he will "get it" more and more (not unlike Tuqiri and Sailor), and am confident he will continue to be on the right side of the positive/negative ledger in 2014. If he's taken out of the back 3 (which in my limited capacity as a rugby fan I'd disagree with), the defensive role changes. 12 is fairly straightforward and equally forgiving as there's nearly always cover from loose forwards or inside backs, whereas 13 is less so with top quality defenders such as Horne, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or even Jacque Fourie often high on the list of missed tackles due less to their tackling ability than the concentration of complex backline moves through this channel.

My 11-15 of choice, barring injury, would be: AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Beale, Horne, Crawford, Folau and Lance/Betham on the bench; OR Betham, Horne, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Crawford, Folau and Lance/Beale on the bench. This would depend on opposition and game day strategy, and injury may see the likes of Alofa and Volavola seeing game time from the bench as the inevitably shuffling occurs. It's good to have a versatile team in these circumstances, and Chieka's the better for it. Good luck boys!
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
I will be extremely surprised if Cheika does not start Izzy in the centres this season. He is too good a footballer to be wasted at the back in what is, essentially, a defensive position. Plus he does not seem to me to have developed the rugby instinct to know when and how to inject himself at the set pieces. Put him in the centres, give him a clear role to play, and watch him dominate the best oppositions.

That is not to say that he is not a very good full-back, it is simply a recognition that he is likely to do more harm closer to the action.
I don't think fullback is essentially a defensive position.IF's admirers talk about his value add with the ball.Not how how shuts downs the opposition with his defence.If anything defence is one area where people think he needs to improve.
A fullback has heaps more opportunities with the ball than a centre.
At fullback both sides are giving you the ball.A centre is totally dependant on his inside man for opportunities.
 

Bronzewhaler

Stan Wickham (3)
Izzy is no Dagg. He is a great athlete but his positional play is a great concern -he does not instinctively know where he should be or where he should be going either in attack and particularly in defence
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
I will be extremely surprised if Cheika does not start Izzy in the centres this season. He is too good a footballer to be wasted at the back in what is, essentially, a defensive position. Plus he does not seem to me to have developed the rugby instinct to know when and how to inject himself at the set pieces. Put him in the centres, give him a clear role to play, and watch him dominate the best oppositions.

That is not to say that he is not a very good full-back, it is simply a recognition that he is likely to do more harm closer to the action.

Disagree. Very, very much.

Fullback is not a defensive position, all you need to do is look at Australia's history of attacking fullbacks. Since going professional, we've had Burke and Latham, and going back to guys like, say, Roeback and Campo. Roff is another who could play some fullback, and we've also had Rogers and Beale play there.

Some of the guys mentioned are outstanding attacking players - Campo, Latham, Burke, Beale. None were known as defensive first, not even Burke.

If you want current examples, the best two fullbacks in the world (with arguably Folau) are Halfpenny and Dagg, again, neither known for their defence.

Mate, good 15s will touch the ball a lot more than the 13 in a match.

Folau for me is a fullback first and foremost. His ability under the highball is key - you essentially nullify a key tactic. We have no other safe fullbacks under the high ball - Beale is less than a 50/50 proposition most of the time. I recall that in the second Lions test Beale took 1 from 3 high balls.

Outside centre isn't an easy position to play well, either. Just look at how few good ones there are in the world. We haven't had a good one since Mortlock, and before that we were lucky enough to have Herbert and Little, who were generally head and shoulders over anyone else we had.

I find it extremely unlikely that you could throw Folau into 13 and expect him to dominate the best opponents. Maybe after this Super season you could tell if he was suited to 13 or not.

This is a touch call for the Tahs, because I think that 15 is also Beale's best position. Beale is a fantastic attacking player, but I'd say he is probably weaker than Folau on defence. Even in the Lions tour where I thought Beale was well off form (and he definitely shouldn't have played) you could see the spark he provides as he adds that second playmaker who bobs up anywhere. I'd think seriously about starting Beale from the bench as a utility, and let him play his way into the side somewhere.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Not buying that for a second. Izzy made a load of try saving tackles in the last few tests.

He's adapted remarkably quickly to the position.


Agree. Earlier on you could see that Folau was too slow in reading play and responding, but in the last few tests on Tour you could also see the improvement. I think it was the Wales game where Folau stopped two certain tries by being in the correct position and making the tackle. One of which I recall was off a break down the touchline off a ruck.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I cannot see the argument for Folau at 13. I have no doubt that he would be fantastic there and would be a very real attacking threat. But in saying that at 15 or even as a sweeping winger/2nd 15 in the mould of Roff/Campo he provides a security and threat under any high ball that many teams simply stopped kicking long to the Tahs. Even against Wales on the EOYT they stopped going long so much and opted for more contestable bombs which he duly took and dominated.

IMO moving him to 13 to accommodate Beale is weakening a point of dominance for the Tahs. Beale despite many protests to the contrary just isn't that good at taking the high ball. KB (Kurtley Beale) usually drops more in a single game than Folau did in the entire season. I will be very disappointed if Folau is moved to 13 accommodate Beale at 15, if Beale simply demands a start on training form then it should be on the wing IMO and he could be considered for 12 if Horne is injured and as a last resort at 10.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Nothing to see here Gaffa.
Just like the Brisbane Bronco's & the Melbourne Storm,the Tah's players are happy to play for a little less to be part of it.
Added to that,they are impressed with the support the Tahs admin give to some of the SS teams to upkeep their ovals!
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Agree. Earlier on you could see that Folau was too slow in reading play and responding, but in the last few tests on Tour you could also see the improvement. I think it was the Wales game where Folau stopped two certain tries by being in the correct position and making the tackle. One of which I recall was off a break down the touchline off a ruck.


Also on positioning, to be able to execute the excellent skills under the high ball he first has to be in position to be able to execute. I just don't buy the positioning argument.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
I don't think he has the pace/size equation to play 13 plus in my view it is probably the hardest place to defend.
The fact that there are so many views about where he could play is testament to the fact that no one is convinced about him.


Its also testament to how much he has to offer in terms of skills, pace and support.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Izzy is no Dagg. He is a great athlete but his positional play is a great concern -he does not instinctively know where he should be or where he should be going either in attack and particularly in defence


For someone who has no clue where he should be he popped up in the right position to score or put someone away a hell of a lot of times last season! Dagg's try-scoring feats were only average this year and he is surrounded by some of the best talent on the planet.
 
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