Waratahs 2013

[p.Tah]

All you happy chappies south of the border get your NRL sample bags (he he)

I'd rather wear a Tahs hat even with an NRL tag than wear a QLD REDs hat

 

[Torn Hammy]

FatProp, you'll no doubt understand and others.
Probably up until under 12's maybe older - if you were asked your position did you answer "Prop" fair call.
Probably at under 15's onwards if you were asked your position your answer may have been THP or LHP as you become more specialised - there is a clear difference between the 2.

Same applies to backs there a skill sets a 5/8 needs, an inside centre needs, and an outside centre needs - any wonder there is utter confusion on their faces.

So "picking players out of position" is part of our problem, in addition to that "game plan" or lack of.

I am allarmed when I read the Tah's 35 man player roster, there is only
1. Inside Centre - Tom Carter.
1. Outside Centre - Rob Horne.
So specialised centres there are only 2?
I would only have "either or" playing definately not both of them, over the past 3 or 4 years I have seen neither of them provide the attacking angles or speed in Super Rugby, or the Shute Shield that I'd like to see.
Who to pick? A back line needs to click, so it depends on the 9, 10, 11,14, & 15.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is the incumbent OC and Barnes has spent most of the Deans era at IC. They should go OK if Carter or Horne get injured.

I'm looking forward to the performances of our backline under Cheika. I'm tipping a big year for Horne and Kingston.

 

[fatprop]

Apologies if I misunderstood this part of your post. I had no intention to misrepresent you.

None needed mate, I need to write more clearly

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Quick Hands]

You cannot just blindly pick the next best specialist in a position: to do so may mean that the team is weaker than it could be.
The downsides of reshuffling have to be weighed up but those downsides are just some of the factors that go into decisions.
Obsessing about picking specialists also overlooks the dynamic situations that arise during a game.
Players need to possess as many skills at the highest level they can in order to contribute to their potential - whatever a game throws at them.
This is a fundamental difference between what Union asks of a player and what the other rugby code asks.

Not talking about blindly picking the next best, but the dynamic situations that occur in a game are often best handled by players who are experts in that position and have faith in those around them. Ever noticed how some class fullbacks always seem to know where the ball is going to be kicked to, some centre combinations always seem to know what the other guy is doing?

Something is never right or wrong 100% of the time, there will always be the occasion where picking a guy out of position is the right thing for the team, but if it's the first option as has been the Waratahs and Wallabies of late, then it leads to confusion and chaos.

As I've said, multi-skilling is important in the development/academy phase to prepare players to fill in off the bench and play out of position in times of necessity. When we talk of a backline looking "slick", it's usually one in which the players almost instinctively know what each other is doing and can turn nothing into half breaks and half breaks into tries.

 

[GTPIH]

The SMH finally got to this story today. Just goes to show rugby stories break on G&GR first. Here 'tis:http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-members-over-cap-clanger-20130111-2cjv7.html

It was not only the caps. I received a small gym type towel that also had the NRL logo. Didn't even notice until I received the mea culpa letter today from NSWRU and the supplier.

 

[Quick Hands]

Kicking the ball away? It isn't a Turner specific issue/tactic with the Tahs

Aimless kicking by the backs is one of the problems associated with poor selection policies and constant shuffling of players. The players are confused or unsure so they kick it.

With a player like Turner, who I rate highly, it's a classic example Waratahs & Wallabies backline selections making top line players look ordinary or worse. Everything happens a little too slowly, passes not where they should be, people have less time and space, so they make poor decisions under pressure.

 

[Dave Beat]

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is the incumbent OC and Barnes has spent most of the Deans era at IC. They should go OK if Carter or Horne get injured.

I'm looking forward to the performances of our backline under Cheika. I'm tipping a big year for Horne and Kingston.

Torn Hammy, Barnes & AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) have formed part of the defunctional WOB's backline that most of us have been critical about, the one that has averages 1 try a game.

I read Barnes is allowed to choose his position - I wait with baited breath.

As for the Centre's I would pick either Carter, or Horne, not both history suggest our attack will be very blunt fielding both based on history - Cheika may change that though so again I wait with baited breath.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Not talking about blindly picking the next best, but the dynamic situations that occur in a game are often best handled by players who are experts in that position and have faith in those around them. Ever noticed how some class fullbacks always seem to know where the ball is going to be kicked to, some centre combinations always seem to know what the other guy is doing?

Something is never right or wrong 100% of the time, there will always be the occasion where picking a guy out of position is the right thing for the team, but if it's the first option as has been the Waratahs and Wallabies of late, then it leads to confusion and chaos.

As I've said, multi-skilling is important in the development/academy phase to prepare players to fill in off the bench and play out of position in times of necessity. When we talk of a backline looking "slick", it's usually one in which the players almost instinctively know what each other is doing and can turn nothing into half breaks and half breaks into tries.

The difficulty is, particularly in the backs, you will inevitably find a player at first receiver at some point in a game who lacks the skills of your 5/8. Indeed, a good team will welcome that because there is a fair chance it means that their opposition 5/8 is caught somewhere.
That is why, IMO, every player (and certainly every back) needs to have as complete a skill set as possible.
The best teams are the ones who can have a bloke technically out of position (say, first receiver) who can nonetheless execute the required skill - be it a left foot kick or a long flat pass.
IMO, a problem in Australian rugby is that we concentrate too much on what are thought to be position specific skills at the expense of fundamentals. I think this is where the Kiwis have their greatest advantage - their basic skills (run, pass, kick) are superior in each position meaning that when they find themselves out of their usual position they execute better than their opposite number would if he were out of position in the same way.
So when Nonu goes to first receiver he is more dangerous than if, say, McCabe were at first receiver and so on.
Slick backlines are usually characterised by decisiveness and accuracy - all passes out in front of the receiver. Decisiveness and proper passing are not position specific skills.
Where I think your point is a good one is in relation to confidence: if a player is picked and thinks that one mistake will cost him his spot then he will be cautious and, often, indecisive.

 

[It is what it is]

For slick backlines I would add the ability to consistently realign into an attacking formation.
The AB's are masters at keeping their backline shape irregardless of who is filling which position.
The Waratahs and Wallabies seem to lose shape, depth and width after only a few phases.

 

[Torn Hammy]

Torn Hammy, Barnes & AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) have formed part of the defunctional WOB's backline that most of us have been critical about, the one that has averages 1 try a game.

I read Barnes is allowed to choose his position - I wait with baited breath.

As for the Centre's I would pick either Carter, or Horne, not both history suggest our attack will be very blunt fielding both based on history - Cheika may change that though so again I wait with baited breath.

Agree DB, from an attacking point of view I can't really say that any of the Waratah backs have done much over the last couple of years.

Defensively though, Barnes, Carter and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 10, 12 and 13 makes a very strong midfield. Put the dancing boys outside them.

 

[Quick Hands]

The difficulty is, particularly in the backs, you will inevitably find a player at first receiver at some point in a game who lacks the skills of your 5/8. Indeed, a good team will welcome that because there is a fair chance it means that their opposition 5/8 is caught somewhere.
That is why, IMO, every player (and certainly every back) needs to have as complete a skill set as possible.
The best teams are the ones who can have a bloke technically out of position (say, first receiver) who can nonetheless execute the required skill - be it a left foot kick or a long flat pass.
IMO, a problem in Australian rugby is that we concentrate too much on what are thought to be position specific skills at the expense of fundamentals. I think this is where the Kiwis have their greatest advantage - their basic skills (run, pass, kick) are superior in each position meaning that when they find themselves out of their usual position they execute better than their opposite number would if he were out of position in the same way.
So when Nonu goes to first receiver he is more dangerous than if, say, McCabe were at first receiver and so on.
Slick backlines are usually characterised by decisiveness and accuracy - all passes out in front of the receiver. Decisiveness and proper passing are not position specific skills.
Where I think your point is a good one is in relation to confidence: if a player is picked and thinks that one mistake will cost him his spot then he will be cautious and, often, indecisive.

You're right, the generic kick/pas/run/tackle skills should be developed regardess of position. IMO, this is part of the player development process rather than the selection process. When the 2 are confused, we get what we have now, jacks of all trades and masters of nothing.

There is also a fundamental difference in being selected in a particular position and developing personal and team goals, making it your own if you like, to filling in either on the run or off the bench.

I don't believe that it's fair on the players to expect them to start at 3 different positions in the space of 4 or 5 weeks, with others doing the same and expect them to look anything other than unsure and confused. Some weeks 3 guys have been moved around the backline without anyone being dropped or injured.

 

[Quick Hands]

For slick backlines I would add the ability to consistently realign into an attacking formation.
The AB's are masters at keeping their backline shape irregardless of who is filling which position.
The Waratahs and Wallabies seem to lose shape, depth and width after only a few phases.

It's not instinct to them because they're always in diffferent positions and/or playing inside or outside someone different. A lot of this stuff needs to be instinctive rather than having to stop and think 'where should I be?'

 

[Dave Beat]

Agree DB, from an attacking point of view I can't really say that any of the Waratah backs have done much over the last couple of years.

Defensively though, Barnes, Carter and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 10, 12 and 13 makes a very strong midfield. Put the dancing boys outside them.

Outside them???
It may all be different under Cheika, I haven't seen a team of his play.
I don't think Barnes plays on ths line, I'd like to see that in attack, I think Barnes has incredible vision and is more adept to 15 but I'd like to see him work with 11 and 14 and chime into the backline rather that kick.

Possibly Carter at 12, but I think if Horne was in the same 15 it would be blunt. Again may all change under Cheika

 

[p.Tah]

Congratulations to Cheika and his wife Stephanie on the birth of their 4th child

https://mobile.twitter.com/NSWWaratahs/status/290662733639196674/photo/1

 

[matty_k]

Just popped up on Twitter.
http://bit.ly/VZCsaT

Kane Douglas rolled his ankle at a sponsor's function playing touch footy this afternoon but Waratahs officials say the injury isn't serious

I wonder if he was trying his patented side step.

 

[Bardon]

Just on the reshuffling in the backs, based on Cheika's time up here at Leinster, I would expect to see less reshuffling than we saw last year at the Tahs. Cheika seems to prefer to have a settled side with players in their preferred positions and in case of injuries 1 or 2 guys may move. Isa Nacewa was generally the guy to move covering fly half, full back and either wing, while the rest of the team remained in the normal position and the person coming into the team played in their familiar role. This approach will hopefully help the team learn the new systems easier and allow combinations to be more intuitive.

On the field it will probably be a different story though, especially as players become more used to the style of play, players will be expected to play the position they find themselves in. So wingers will be expected to be able to cover full back when the full back counters. A lot Leinster's attack was based on moving the ball quickly and accurately so often there wasn't time to realign. At the start there were instances where this might lead to a knock-on due to a forward being out wide in tight space etc. but once the handling skills improved that same forward was collecting the pass and giving a quick inside ball to put a back through a hole. It may not be pretty to start with but if it clicks it can be truly majestic.

Also I wouldn't expect there to be no kicking at all. At Leinster if the kick was the right option then it was taken. Contepomi and Necewa (plus Sexton later on) weren't afraid to exploit space behind the opposition defence with a well placed kick. The same was true for those playing full back and wing. The main difference was that the if the break was on or there was space to be exploited then that was the option taken the majority of the time, regardless of how far away from the try line they were.

To begin with Leinster were very inconsistent and shipped some heavy defeats and it will probably take time at the Tahs too. How much time depends on the players buy in to the philosophy. At Stade he never really got the players to opt-in and they were mediocre at best, hopefully the lessons learned there will help in terms of transforming the Tahs. I don't expect the Tahs to run out as world beaters at the start of the season, but I do expect there to be more ambition and rather than less kicking I would expect their to be less aimless kicking.

 

[Bardon]

One of the strengths of the English language is that it is constantly evolving. As an example, consider the word "chunk". It can now mean "one instance".

Carter was omitted from the "match day squad" for just one game, Round 13 against the Stormers. One of the interesting things about disinformation is how frequently it transmogrifies into received wisdom.
.

My view on Tom Carter is that although he's not the flashiest player, nor do I agree with his antics, he's a solid player and you know what you'll get with him. He's someone who often doesn't stand out in games, again this points to a lack of "X-factor" but it also means he's can't be making that many mistakes. It's pretty nice to have a guy who's consistent and won't miss many games in your squad when you're trying to bed in a new system/philosophy.

 

[Lee Grant]

What's turners issue? The same hammy injury?
He's a bloke who always gives his all and to describe his kicking as cowardly is ridiculous.

Turner was training flat out yesterday.
.

 

[TOCC]

Does anyone know the Tahs training schedule, I live down the road from Moore park and wouldn't mind watching a training session?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Does anyone know the Tahs training schedule, I live down the road from Moore park and wouldn't mind watching a training session?

Reds spy???