Waratahs 2013

[Hawko]

Surely defense since the early 80s has improved so much and these days against top teams provides so little space that even the famed randwick sides would have trouble behind a beaten pack.

You are both fortunate and unfortunate to be young, and so haven't seen what was possible. Us old bastards actually saw it and so we know what you can do with a well coached backline. One of the hints is that you saw very few cut-out passes back then. Bob Dwyer talks about not liking the modern cut-out pass because it allows drift defence. Draw your man and put the next player into space was the mantra then. Pass and loop was what a good back used to do to make the overlap. Now we just chuck it to the last bloke on the line and wonder why there is no space and three defenders covering.

I'd back Ella, Walker, Ella, Ella, Campese to unpick any modern day defence because that's what they did. Modern defences with backlines stuffed with forwards would be negated by forward drives that pulled the extra players back into the ruck. Then when they had one on one match ups all of a sudden the backs would be released and the ball would suddenly disappear only to be found over the try line.

They say that oldies memories put a magic gloss on the old, but I've still got my VHS tapes of the 84 grand slam team to prove what is possible. No doubt there are other records that haven't been lost but are locked away somewhere in the archives.

 

[Lee Grant]

Amen - and before them with Hawker and O'Connor - little short passes where the ball went back and forth and the receiver ran onto the ball just in time.

We were world leaders in ball work and now we pass at the man, instead of in front of him, or too high and he has to do a bunny hop to catch the ball.

There is nothing wrong with long passes in themselves, but the receiver has to be running into space or half space, or swerving into such before he gets the ball. Even Bernie Larkham couldn't work his magic long passes if his players outside him didn't use deception before they got the pill.

Good centres in particular don't line up like ducks waiting to be shot before the ball gets to them. They try to receive the pass where the tacklers don't expect them to be and even move when the ball is in the air. This is one of the great attributes of BOD which is hardly ever mentioned.

Quade has not been playing that great but the players outside him have to do their bit.
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[Riptide]

So will Chris Whittaker be part of the package as manager?

And if the backs continue to miss fire does David Knox return?

Unsure if Knox and Cheika are still on the best if terms after Leinster, but all may be well. Anyone have an opinion?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Cheika used the A word (in the press conference I think, or maybe the press release). I mentally had to jump and make sure I was hearing correctly. Its a word that has almost disappeared from the rugby lexicon. That mindset that has attack as its first thought is how Waratah rugby at its best used to be played. How Barnes will cope with the concept I do not know - he seems to want to give the ball away on every possible occasion.

I so liked the way the word was used I took special notice and to be truthful my heart lifted just a tad. Could it be that we would play a game plan that was active rather than reactive? Hope can be the best of things, but I've hoped in vain before. But in truth the Waratahs need most of all to change their mindset - that was the primary problem last year.

Hawko I feel the same sense of optimism - very unusual for me.
Not sure it's rational but hey this must be how waratahjesus feels all the time: it's not bad!


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[Lindommer]

At least Cheika'll be able to choose the extra halfback. Who will it be?

 

[Lee Grant]

Going back further, Catchpole and Hipwell could both turn retreating packs and scabby ball into miracle tries.

They were the great crapmeisters - masters of dealing with shit ball. They literally don't have players like that any more, at least in top 10 teams because the forwards are a lot closer in ability now than they were then.

They were forced to play behind crap Oz forwards and they got so much bad pill that they had to evolve to succeed. They got to be adept at slinging the ball out quickly from bad heights and angles with their feet in the wrong place - like quarterbacks such as Namath and Marino who had to release the ball quicker than others because of bad offensive linemen or bad knees.

Sometimes even Catchy and Hippy couldn't deliver pill that was in the wrong place; so they had to snipe with it. Both were great down the blindside but they had to be, so they could escape. Catchpole is well regarded even now but Hipwell is underrated, yet he was one of the best blindside snipers the game has ever had.

They would kill it in the modern game.
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[Lee Grant]

At least Cheika'll be able to choose the extra halfback. Who will it be?

The EPS scrummie is supposed to be Matt Lucas, the Oz U/20 no.9.
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[Inside Shoulder]

They say that oldies memories put a magic gloss on the old, but I've still got my VHS tapes of the 84 grand slam team to prove what is possible. No doubt there are other records that haven't been lost but are locked away somewhere in the archives.

it's a bit of a stretch to suggest the grand slam pack were other than pretty damned good: push over try at cardiff objectively suggests otherwise and subjectively some of the greats were in that pack.
I'd be surprised if the stats suggested that hipwell and catchpole were in teams with winning records.
In fact Hipwells overall record was 33% wins (http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/7387.html?class=1;template=results;type=player) and catchpoles was 35%
(http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/6600.html?class=1;template=results;type=player).
From the infamous wales test at SCG the balance shifted, IMO, and from that time we had at least a serviceable pack and a decade plus of great backs.
I haven't got the stats to prove it but, my impression is, the Randwick dominance in the 80s was built n the back of forward parity most of the time.



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[Lindommer]

Lee, I was alluding to waju's plan of the ball being passed from halfback to halfback, with a scrummie lurking in support. And another number 9 ready to chase a chipped ball. Methinks another halfback won't be enough.

 

[fatprop]

Nice sentiments

Recently-appointed New South Wales Waratahs coach Michael Cheika to bring back 'old school' rugby

• By Iain Payten
• The Daily Telegraph
• September 19, 2012 9:32AM

Michael Cheika says "old school" will be part of the new Waratahs setup after the former Randwick hard-head stepped into the hottest seat in Australian rugby coaching.
But old faces are not on Cheika's radar, with no plans to bring departed skipper Rocky Elsom back to the Tahs despite a recent dinner meeting in Paris between the former Leinster clubmates.
Cheika was finally unveiled by the Waratahs as their new head coach yesterday on a three-year deal, replacing Michael Foley.

​

The 45-year-old was described as a "change agent'' by new Waratahs chairman Roger Davis, who admitted after their worst ever season the Tahs' board had sought a coach to "transform our culture ... and our track record"'.
Cheika has been linked to numerous Australian coaching jobs previously, most recently turning down the Western Force head coach role that Foley ended up taking.
The attraction for Cheika to finally return home and take up the high-pressure Waratahs gig was unlocking the potential of Australia's chronic underachievers.
"Not all clubs, whether here in Australia or in Europe, have that potential. I would really like to tap into that,'' Cheika said.
Cheika has a track record of success, having won seven premierships with Randwick as a player and two as a coach prior to coaching in Europe. He won a Celtic League title and a Heineken Cup in 2009 with Leinster before a two season stint with Stade Francais ended in May.
Re-igniting the Waratahs' stagnant attack is a focus when the Cheika era begins next month.
"Looking at the on-field, we can do some simple things to play with more flow,'' Cheika said. "Obviously I come from a big attacking background as far as my football is concerned, and it is something I want to do. Attacking rugby is part of my heritage.''

​

Cheika, who addressed staff and players on Tuesday, confirmed his reputation as a hard-nosed coach by saying a strong culture would be all-important at the Waratahs, and players must display "dog''.

"It's the balance between cutting edge, technology and science and all those things, balanced with a bit of old-school: gut feeling, good culture, good atmosphere around the place, hard work and a bit of dog as well,'' Cheika said.
Cheika said he would begin talking with current assistant coaches in coming days before finalising his staff.
Allan Gaffney, who was Cheika's backs coach at Leinster, is understood to be the only one confirmed so far.
"I feel for those guys because a lot of them haven't had much certainty over the last period,'' Cheika said.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

You are both fortunate and unfortunate to be young, and so haven't seen what was possible. Us old bastards actually saw it and so we know what you can do with a well coached backline. One of the hints is that you saw very few cut-out passes back then. Bob Dwyer talks about not liking the modern cut-out pass because it allows drift defence. Draw your man and put the next player into space was the mantra then. Pass and loop was what a good back used to do to make the overlap. Now we just chuck it to the last bloke on the line and wonder why there is no space and three defenders covering.

I was very recently bemoaning current players inability to work an overlap properly anymore and it goes to what you've posted Hawko. Whenever there is a little space out wide, or a 3 on 2, why is it the player runs to the outside space and tries to draw the outside player inside him? Surely that's just playing into the drift defense and giving the tacklers time to cramp the space? It's not just our players who do it either, I saw the all blacks guilty of the same thing.

a step infield with a quick pass out will open up more defenses than a winger cutting back behind the 13. Why does it take a front rower to point this out?

 

[Hawko]

it's a bit of a stretch to suggest the grand slam pack were other than pretty damned good: push over try at cardiff objectively suggests otherwise and subjectively some of the greats were in that pack.
I'd be surprised if the stats suggested that hipwell and catchpole were in teams with winning records.
In fact Hipwells overall record was 33% wins (http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/7387.html?class=1;template=results;type=player) and catchpoles was 35%
(http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/6600.html?class=1;template=results;type=player).
From the infamous wales test at SCG the balance shifted, IMO, and from that time we had at least a serviceable pack and a decade plus of great backs.
I haven't got the stats to prove it but, my impression is, the Randwick dominance in the 80s was built n the back of forward parity most of the time.



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Yes, our forward pack in 84 was better than good and I'm not suggesting that it wasn't. I still get goosebumps when I think about the pushover try against Wales because that was just about the first time Australia had a dominant pack. Before that occasionally we got parity but we were more often outclassed. We got crappy ball all the time but learnt to make good of it. You can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear if you try hard enough.

The 1984 tour video is the only old footage I have that shows just how good our backline skills were. But my memory says we had great backlines even before that time. Catchpole's and Hipwell's win/loss stats highlight how uncompetitive we were in those years, but it doesn't speak as to how good they were. You had to see it to understand.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yes, our forward pack in 84 was better than good and I'm not suggesting that it wasn't. I still get goosebumps when I think about the pushover try against Wales because that was just about the first time Australia had a dominant pack. Before that occasionally we got parity but we were more often outclassed. We got crappy ball all the time but learnt to make good of it. You can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear if you try hard enough.

The 1984 tour video is the only old footage I have that shows just how good our backline skills were. But my memory says we had great backlines even before that time. Catchpole's and Hipwell's win/loss stats highlight how uncompetitive we were in those years, but it doesn't speak as to how good they were. You had to see it to understand.

Last night fox "chooseday" rugby game was 1997 Ballymore test against the french - Larkham at Fullback, Horan at 5/8, Pat Howard at I/C and Little at 13. Tune and Roff were the wingers.
I never rated Howard at the time but geez they let the ball do the talking that night.
One move consisted of a switch between Horan and Howard with a switch back to Roff - it all happened so close to the scrum from which it was called that it shouldn't have worked - but it did. And when you saw it in slomo the soft hands were sublime and the timing beautiful.
It may well not work now but if those skills were available something else like it might.
Maybe todays players need to look at some of this old stuff just to get a feel for how it looked when it was good - It may not work but it might give them some insight or ideas.
The worst thing about it was the bloody awful Reebok jerseys.

 

[wamberal]

If it was easy to score tries using moves from the good old days, all teams would be doing precisely that.


Players these days are bigger, fitter, stronger, faster and better in defence. Defensive systems are better. There is no easy way to score tries. Why on earth would there be?


Wake up, folks, it is 2012 already.

 

[southsider]

1. Benn Robinson
2. Tatafu Polota-Nau
3. Sekope Kepu
4. Sitaleki Timani
5. Kane Douglas
6. Dave Dennis
7. Michael Hooper
8. Wycliff Palu
9. Grayson Hart
10. Bernard Foley
11. Drew Mitchell
12. Berrick Barnes
13. Rob Horne
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper
15. Lachie Turner

16. Damien Fitzpatrick
17. John Ulugia
18. Ollie Atkins
19. Lopeti Timani
20. Brendan McKibbin
21. Tom Kingston
22. Peter Betham

so this would be my matchday 22, bit controversial maybe but think it would go alright.

whole staring foward pack really speaks for itself. Reserves Had Ulugia as prop reserve, know he isnt as good a scrummager but the other parts of his game outshine the other props (imo) also leaves room for fitzpatrick who is a great replacement to have if he can stay injury free. Atkins just because the other option was Petersen, who i think is pretty useless. Timani to be brought on with 20 to go as a enforcer style role.

in the backs, put Hart as starting purely because i wasnt impressed of what i saw of McKibbin last year, although not sure wether Harts up to it either. Think we need both Barnes and Foley in there, Barnes for his kicking and Foley for his "attack" so they get their spots. im confident that if Horne can stay on the field he will be a force in 2013, he has so much promise but hasnt been able to get into a groove. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the wing because he never passes the ball. Lachie at the back because his a good defender, good kicker and has speed. Reserves Kingston is really a centre and i think with last years experience under his belt he can step up into the centres and Bethams been killing it in NZ, wouldve gladly put him in the starting team but couldnt find a place for him

 

[qwerty51]

I like it but swap AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Turner. Paddy Ryan instead of Ulugia

I'm thinking McCutcheon and L Timani on the bench. If a lock goes down, Dennis to lock.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Ryan cant get a bench spot?

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[southsider]

I'm thinking McCutcheon and L Timani on the bench. If a lock goes down, Dennis to lock.

didnt think of this actually but agree works better.

flexible with the props just though ulugia was a better ball runner, which id prefer personally but not fussed

not sure bout ACC though, not a good kicker, hasnt got great pace and is reluctant to pass the ball- only suggestion i really have a problem with

 

[Lee Grant]

These combinations of players a fun to write about but the cruel reality of injuries makes a bit of a mockery of nice selections - even in a normal year yet alone one like 2012.

For what it is worth: I think that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) will be one of the first players picked and they'll work on which number jersey he gets depending on other selections.
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[latrell247]

1. Benn Robinson
2. Tatafu Polota-Nau
3. Sekope Kepu
4. Sitaleki Timani
5. Kane Douglas
6. Dave Dennis
7. Michael Hooper
8. Wycliff Palu
9. Grayson Hart
10. Bernard Foley
11. Drew Mitchell
12. Berrick Barnes
13. Rob Horne
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper
15. Lachie Turner

16. Damien Fitzpatrick
17. John Ulugia
18. Ollie Atkins
19. Lopeti Timani
20. Brendan McKibbin
21. Tom Kingston
22. Peter Betham

so this would be my matchday 22, bit controversial maybe but think it would go alright.

whole staring foward pack really speaks for itself. Reserves Had Ulugia as prop reserve, know he isnt as good a scrummager but the other parts of his game outshine the other props (imo) also leaves room for fitzpatrick who is a great replacement to have if he can stay injury free. Atkins just because the other option was Petersen, who i think is pretty useless. Timani to be brought on with 20 to go as a enforcer style role.

in the backs, put Hart as starting purely because i wasnt impressed of what i saw of McKibbin last year, although not sure wether Harts up to it either. Think we need both Barnes and Foley in there, Barnes for his kicking and Foley for his "attack" so they get their spots. im confident that if Horne can stay on the field he will be a force in 2013, he has so much promise but hasnt been able to get into a groove. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the wing because he never passes the ball. Lachie at the back because his a good defender, good kicker and has speed. Reserves Kingston is really a centre and i think with last years experience under his belt he can step up into the centres and Bethams been killing it in NZ, wouldve gladly put him in the starting team but couldnt find a place for him

Here's my matchday 22
1. Benn Robinson
2. Tatafu Polota-Nau
3. Sekope Kepu
4. Sitaleki Timani
5. Kane Douglas
6. Dave Dennis
7. Michael Hooper
8. Wycliff Palu
9. Grayson Hart
10. Bernard Foley
11. Drew Mitchell
12. Berrick Barnes
13. Rob Horne
14. Lachie Turner
15. Adam Ashley Cooper

16. Damien Fitzpatrick
17. Patrick Ryan
18. Greg Peterson
19. Lopeti Timani
20. Brendan McKibbin
21. Tom Kingston
22. Peter Betham

Would like to know who would be openside flanker if Hooper and McCutcheon we're both unavailible?
Also if two hookers were injured who would be next in line? Josh Mann Rae or another in form player from shute shield?