Waratahs 2012

[Inside Shoulder]

Financially the new board has increased there funding to junior development whilst also delivering a very rare profit (albeit small) for Tahs rugby. They have actually done this through increased membership etc. this year wins are low, so next year may reflect a downturn but last years results weren't actually that bad.

There not delivering on field this year but board wise they have actually been a bit of a positive over the last 18 months in terms of operations.

they pay a license fee to nswru - and make additional grants, according to the Chairman's report, to nswru. I cannot see where the additional grants are reflected in the accounts so they must be small and subsumed within a generic item.
There is no mention of funding junior development in the tahs annual report.



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[RedsHappy]

Financially the new board has increased there funding to junior development whilst also delivering a very rare profit (albeit small) for Tahs rugby. They have actually done this through increased membership etc. this year wins are low, so next year may reflect a downturn but last years results weren't actually that bad.

There not delivering on field this year but board wise they have actually been a bit of a positive over the last 18 months in terms of operations.

Thanks WJ. If you fans are all happy with this split structure, then fine. And I agree that to have achieved moderate total income growth 2011 v 2010 is commendable and desirable. It'd be interesting to see NSW's AFL and league revenue growth rates over the last few years and compare them to the Tahs income growth rate.

Personally, I still don't get why a total business with revenues of approx $22m pa (not a big business) needs two entirely segmented business structures with, by my count, no less than a total of 14 directors over sighting the two.

 

[Braveheart81]

I guess the main reason behind the split would be that the interests of both oganisations aren't directly aligned.

They have the common interest that the success of one will assist with the success of the other (in both directions) however conflict could arise if they were both seeking to exploit the resources (both financial and personnel) of a single organisation for their own benefit.

 

[fatprop]

You guys seem to have far more faith in "boards" than I do.

Realistically success in rugby comes from having a decent 10 on the field not what suit sits in a board meeting

It comes to no surprise to me that the winning sides over the last few years have had Cooper, Carter & Steyne at 10. The last time the Tahs were a real shot was with Beale at 10 (and playing well) and we were 30 odd minutes away from winning.

 

[SuperGrover]

and a split makes it a much easier proposition should the powers that be decide private equity is the way forward.

 

[Braveheart81]

You guys seem to have far more faith in "boards" than I do.

Realistically success in rugby comes from having a decent 10 on the field not what suit sits in a board meeting

It comes to no surprise to me that the winning sides over the last few years have had Cooper, Carter & Steyne at 10. The last time the Tahs were a real shot was with Beale at 10 and we were 30 odd minutes away from winning.

I agree with this.

Barnes has looked far from the superstar 10 and without that, we're unlikely to be a title contender.

I'd like to see Barnes and Foley swapped (or even more preferably, Foley 10, Barnes 12, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) 15). I've said it several times, but I really think Foley could be our man at 10.

 

[hannibal]

I agree with this.

Barnes has looked far from the superstar 10 and without that, we're unlikely to be a title contender.

I'd like to see Barnes and Foley swapped (or even more preferably, Foley 10, Barnes 12, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) 15). I've said it several times, but I really think Foley could be our man at 10.

Also agree. It seems to me that the top sides all have young, attacking, dynamic 10s matched with centres with size AND speed. I'd prefer to experiment with Foley 10, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) 12, Horne 13, Barnes 15. I know AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has been tried everywhere but hes a soliud guy and strong in contact, has good balance and footwork and can pass and execute a move. Also means Barnes can get more space at 15 where he seemed so good and comfortable for Uni.

 

[RedsHappy]

Re NSW 10s. Yes. The deeper question for me is: why did the NSWRU (with the biggest and best rugby feeder system in Aus) get itself into a position whereby it deemed it essential to import a Barnes at 10, a Cross at 12/13, an Anesi, a Pretorious, etc. And then a Hangers is your next best option at 10, and it's clear he's generally a poor one at Super level. And then you chased Lucas Snr from QLD until a few weeks ago as a 10 cum utility back! Why can't more of these key positions be developed within the NSW system?

Equally, as bh81 has said, isn't it a no-brainer that a shuffle worth trying was/is Foley 10, BB 15? Barnes just does not handle the totality of pressure on him at 10, at least in Super rugby, period. Give him a bit less pressure and a fraction more time and he might really flower.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Barnes is just more suited to 10 at test match level where he has players outside him who are better at creating opportunities and organising himself. He has an excellent kicking game which is particularly useful at test level. He doesn't seem to be that much of an organiser which is probably why he isn't the best 10 at Super Rugby level where some of the players outside him aren't the best in the country.

I still like the idea of Foley at 10 and Barnes at 12 to have two playmaking options. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Horne are both quick and can run some good lines, but neither show a huge amount of footwork. They really need players throwing good passes to put them into space.

 

[Lindommer]

Personally, I still don't get why a total business with revenues of approx $22m pa (not a big business) needs two entirely segmented business structures with, by my count, no less than a total of 14 directors over sighting the two.

The intention was to split the amateur and professional arms of rugby in NSW. The NSWRU were copying a model adopted by the Brumbies when they were founded in 1996, the Tahs thought this was the way to go taking into account the Brumbies' successes. Isn't there a separate management board for the Reds in Queensland?


On another note I'm quite bemused WTF the NSWRU now do. I'll go over their various areas of responsibility:

Country rugby:
Southern NSW (from a notional line through Griffith and Goulburn down but excluding Illawarra) is now affiliated with the Brumbies and ACTRU. Run quite well, I might add.
New South Wales Country RU look after the rest of NSW.
Junior rugby:
In Sydney junior development is managed by the ARU. To their credit the QRU didn't let JON and his minions get their hands on Queensland's juniors.
Competitions run by Sydney Junior Rugby Union and the various Metropolitan Zones.
Brumbies do southern NSW, and I must say, very well.
NSWCRU look after the rest of NSW.
Sydney Premier rugby:
Now managed totally by the reformed Sydney Rugby Union, with some financial assistance from the ARU.
Waratahs: Now managed totally by the new Waratahs Ltd.
Subbies rugby: Managed by New South Wales Suburban Rugby Union, competently it seems.
Schools rugby: Managed by the various schools' associations and New South Wales Schools Rugby Union.

Rugby is managed on one level by local rugby groupings but on another level JON and his minions are centralising power in the ARU. A bit like political power in Australia. But I still don't know WTF the NSWRU now do.

 

[fatprop]

Re NSW 10s. Yes. The deeper question for me is: why did the NSWRU (with the biggest and best rugby feeder system in Aus) get itself into a position whereby it deemed it essential to import a Barnes at 10, a Cross at 12/13, an Anesi, a Pretorious, etc. And then a Hangers is your next best option at 10, and it's clear he's generally a poor one at Super level. And then you chased Lucas Snr from QLD until a few weeks ago as a 10 cum utility back! Why can't more of these key positions be developed within the NSW system?

Equally, as bh81 has said, isn't it a no-brainer that a shuffle worth trying was/is Foley 10, BB 15? Barnes just does not handle the totality of pressure on him at 10, at least in Super rugby, period. Give him a bit less pressure and a fraction more time and he might really flower.

The assumption that the " biggest and best rugby feeder system in Aus" just churns out quality test 10s is wrong, plenty of good players, but that super star 10 in Aus is as scarce as hens teeth, Aus is "lucky" to have two at any time.

When you look at the Sydney club comp, the 10s that have come through in the past 5 - 10 years haven't been great. Hangers & Donnelly were the best coming through. The best last season was Pierre Hola - a Tongan International The next option currently would be Rohan Saifolio - and he while player better this season isn't a super star.

http://clubrugby.com.au/2012-r6-shute-shield-teams/

To me, Barnes is our clear best option, let Foley pop in and out from 15 but let Barnes run the game.

 

[RedsHappy]

The intention was to split the amateur and professional arms of rugby in NSW. The NSWRU were copying a model adopted by the Brumbies when they were founded in 1996, the Tahs thought this was the way to go taking into account the Brumbies' successes. Isn't there a separate management board for the Reds in Queensland?


On another note I'm quite bemused WTF the NSWRU now do. I'll go over their various areas of responsibility:

Country rugby: Southern NSW (from a notional line through Griffith and Goulburn down but excluding Illawarra) is now affiliated with the Brumbies and ACTRU. Run quite well, I might add.
New South Wales Country RU look after the rest of NSW.
Junior rugby: In Sydney junior development is managed by the ARU. To their credit the QRU didn't let JON and his minions get their hands on Queensland's juniors.
Competitions run by Sydney Junior Rugby Union and the various Metropolitan Zones.
Brumbies do southern NSW, and I must say, very well.
NSWCRU look after the rest of NSW.
Sydney Premier rugby:
Now managed totally by the reformed Sydney Rugby Union, with some financial assistance from the ARU.
Waratahs: Now managed totally by the new Waratahs Ltd.
Subbies rugby: Managed by New South Wales Suburban Rugby Union, competently it seems.
Schools rugby: Managed by the various schools' associations and New South Wales Schools Rugby Union.

Rugby is managed on one level by local rugby groupings but on another level JON and his minions are centralising power in the ARU. A bit like political power in Australia. But I still don't know WTF the NSWRU now do.

Lindommer: Not sure why the NSWRU would in 2010 want to replicate an ACTRU structure that by 2010 was hardly the pinnacle of rugby success in any sense, but, so be it.

Why is the ARU now running NSW's 'junior rugby development' (and all junior rugby including games?)?, that makes no sense to me.

I think if you study the NSWRU's annual report, the NSW Country RU and the Sydney Premiership etc you list above sort of 'report' into the NSWRU and get their funding subsidies from it. Note 1: there's been material fall offs in 2011 v 2010 in both NSWRU Premiership gate income and sponsorship income. Note 2: Un-broken down in the NSWRU 2011 Report there's over $1.6m in 'Corporate Expenses', prima facie seems very high for what they appear to actually manage in amateur rugby 'assets'.

 

[RedsHappy]

The assumption that the " biggest and best rugby feeder system in Aus" just churns out quality test 10s is wrong, plenty of good players, but that super star 10 in Aus is as scarce as hens teeth, Aus is "lucky" to have two at any time.....When you look at the Sydney club comp, the 10s that have come through in the past 5 - 10 years haven't been great. Hangers & Donnelly were the best coming through. The best last season was Pierre Hola - a Tongan International The next option currently would be Rohan Saifolio - and he while player better this season isn't a super star.....

Hmmm. I guess I was not necessarily referring to 'super star' 10s, but very competent ones that could be developed well. So WA, ACT, QLD can 'churn out' BB, QC (Quade Cooper), Lucas, Lilo, Holmes etc in the last couple of years (noting WA is not a rugby state), but NSW (the biggest rugby state) can at best over the same 3-yr period solely create a just-good-enough Hangers for the Tahs? That's my point, shouldn't the NSW club system be doing better in this area than it seems to be, and providing the Tahs better 'home' players so that NSW builds more natural fan-to-player affinity within the State and thus the Tahs have to import far less players into key positions? (I should have added to my list above: Elsom coming back, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) from Brums, and Mitchell from the Force/QLD.)

 

[Braveheart81]

Swings and roundabouts.

I think NSW has produced plenty of excellent forwards in all positions and backs in many positions in recent years. Just struggled to produce a 10.

Foley would be the best 10 produced in NSW in recent years. He just isn't being played there at the moment.

 

[fatprop]

Hmmm. I guess I was not necessarily referring to 'super star' 10s, but very competent ones that could be developed well. So WA, ACT, QLD can 'churn out' BB, QC (Quade Cooper), Lucas, Lilo, Holmes etc in the last couple of years (noting WA is not a rugby state), but NSW (the biggest rugby state) can at best over the same 3-yr period solely create a just-good-enough Hangers for the Tahs? That's my point, shouldn't the NSW club system be doing better in this area than it seems to be, and providing the Tahs better 'home' players so that NSW builds more natural fan-to-player affinity within the State and thus the Tahs have to import far less players into key positions? (I should have added to my list above: Elsom coming back, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) from Brums, and Mitchell from the Force/QLD.)

Lilo is the only one who has shown some real potential IMHO, the rest are no better than Hangers

 

[Badger]

Note there has been quite a lot of director co-mingling between these two boards.

One fine day someone will explain to me why it was desirable, indeed essential, for the NSWRU to have gone to the considerable expense to have established a separate board and management just for the Tahs, and why a simple internal business division structure within the RU for the professional team(s) would not have sufficed.

Whatever, there seems little evidence that this unusual full separation has demonstrably enriched the Tahs' situation and prospects, either financially in terms of gate income or S15 wins-wise.

I recall the Tahs were set up in a separate entity to allow for other investors to own a slice of the Tahs should private ownership ever eventuate.

 

[waratahjesus]

they pay a license fee to nswru - and make additional grants, according to the Chairman's report, to nswru. I cannot see where the additional grants are reflected in the accounts so they must be small and subsumed within a generic item.
There is no mention of funding junior development in the tahs annual report.



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Sorry, I was talking from memory, they increased there "members grants" which goes to community funding and therefore juniors are a part of that but I was wrong to phrase it as junior development, my apologies.

 

[RedsHappy]

I recall the Tahs were set up in a separate entity to allow for other investors to own a slice of the Tahs should private ownership ever eventuate.

That's the most sensible explanation for the split-out I've heard.

 

[Gnostic]

Re NSW 10s. Yes. The deeper question for me is: why did the NSWRU (with the biggest and best rugby feeder system in Aus) get itself into a position whereby it deemed it essential to import a Barnes at 10, a Cross at 12/13, an Anesi, a Pretorious, etc. And then a Hangers is your next best option at 10, and it's clear he's generally a poor one at Super level. And then you chased Lucas Snr from QLD until a few weeks ago as a 10 cum utility back! Why can't more of these key positions be developed within the NSW system?

Equally, as bh81 has said, isn't it a no-brainer that a shuffle worth trying was/is Foley 10, BB 15? Barnes just does not handle the totality of pressure on him at 10, at least in Super rugby, period. Give him a bit less pressure and a fraction more time and he might really flower.

I have posted on this point in the past RH. The problem here is one of the Tahs not being able to decide what their game plan is, or if they have indeed decided the game plan but they are unable to select properly a 10 to play that game plan because it would mean admitted to the fans that they do not intend to play a "running" game.

By this I mean the Tahs have for quite a few years played a territorial game plan. I have no problem with the game plan, with a dominant lineout (until this year) and an extremely strong pack and one of the best defensive units (until this year) it is a very sound plan against all teams. The problem arises in the Tahs constanty feeling they have to say they intend to play a "running" game, what ever that is supposed to mean (I think they have misconstrued some of the criticism aided by inept reporting from some journalists) and they paint themselves into a corner having to pick certain "types" of players who are perceived to be "running" players. Indeed with last year's reported drive for body mass increase the pack seemed ponderous (and does this year to me) so the territory game was the best tactic, much the same as the Saffas a few years ago and the old English team.

The two premier 10s in the Shute Shield never got a run with the Tahs despite being markedly better than the one that was selected (Hangers) for the tactics they were to employ. I am here speaking about the leading point scorers in the Shute over a number of years, Chris Malone (Uni) and Dan Parkes (Southern Dist. from memory). Parkes as we know went on to represent the Scots fairly well. How can a test 10 not even get a run for the Tahs, and he was home grown and developed, and I would argue that Malone was better. With the game plan that the Tahs have played they would have suited it to a T. Instead they persist with Hangers, who has a pop gun kick from hand and the tee (in comparison to the two named) and no where near the accuracy of the two I named. Then the Tahs purchase Barnes and the talk is all about him running the ball but we see endless bombs and kicking still.

My argument is the Tahs again bowed to perceived pressure and purchased a 10 who they could say was to play a running game and yet play the territorial game that suits the team the best. The problem is that Barnes whilst a good kicker from hand, is only good when on the front foot. Just look at his defensive kicks or those produce when under pressure, average to very poor.

It is this poor execution that should have been the focus of the ire of fans, but has IMO been misdirected at kicking generally by a ill informed or just plain ignorant media that surrounds the Tahs like blowies on a cowpat. The poor kick execution puts them under pressure further and their ponderous forward pack tires and makes poor decisions and so on an so forth.

To say there are no good 10s is just the same old rubbish that has been used to support Deans position when people tried to say he had no options. There are indeed options but whether they get selected or not isn't just a straight forward question of talent, at the Tahs I think there is also the question political/appearance aspects of the selection.

Just imagine the Tahs saying we are selecting a Morne Steyn (not him specifically, the type) at 10, GG, Pandram & Co would be out the next day either espousing his running credentials or decrying the Tahs for selecting for a conservative game plan.

 

[Lindommer]

.....Dan Parkes (Southern Dist. from memory)...

Dan Parks played for West Harbour, Southern Districts and Eastern Suburbs, in that order. Dan put some pressure on the Pirates in about 1999 for (big) money, the Pirates' president declined his offer to play for them so he moved south. He eventually remembered he had a Scottish grandmother and the rest is history.

G, haven't you read LG's reference to Parksie as "Compass"?