• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

Wallaby Watch 2014

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Scrubber I reckon that's an absolute gee up.

He would be the 4th or 5th choice option at 10 so that's not really relevant, you are not going to play him there if you have To'omua and Cooper starting.

Again he'd be lucky to be the 3rd choice 12, I'd argue you'd probably play better defensive players like Harris, Lilo, McCabe, Fainga'a and Godwin there over him at test level.

You're not going to play him at 13.

He's played one test on the wing and again, he's not a finisher and playing him there could be more detrimental to a well functioning backline than helpful.

Then at 15 he potentially could be the 3rd best option. I say potentially, because he's not even playing there. And his short comings (kicking off both feet, defence, high ball) are no stronger than Mogg. He was our best 15 in 2010. Since then Izzy has upped the level, Mogg has come along and Kurtley is not at that same level.

Generally you have a halfback sub, and inside back sub and an outside back sub.

Obviously he won't come on at half. If you bring on an inside back sub, he's not the one you're going to bring on. Then as an outside back sub, he really only covers one position, and you would only contemplate him replacing the player there in the case of injury.

I struggle to see what value he brings to the team besides the potential rabbit out of a hat play, which is offset by the risk of him being a defensive turnstile, liability under the high ball and lateral runner choking outside runners.

I understand all the comments about his match winning ability, but what happens if we aren't a try down with 10 to go and it's worth taking a risk with nothing to lose. How often are we in that position anyway?

What if we're a try up and we need to hold on to a game. Do you want him out there with SA throwing bombs up just outside the 22 or the All Blacks rumbling forward?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I know its off the Mogg trail but another player who i think deserves a run on is Liam gill. Most squads that people pick dont really have a over the ball player (hoopers good but stats wise gill is better). Though he has been injured for parts of the season so far every game he is at the ruck fighting for it and more that once picks it up, and last year (i know its last year but this is interesting) gill had double hoopers pilfers for the season.

I think you're on your own with this in 2014.

Last season there were plenty of people on the Liam Gill bandwagon, but Hooper's efforts for the Wallabies in 2012 and 2013 combined with his form this year make him one of the easiest selections in the team.

I can't imagine there'll even be a discussion amongst the Wallaby selectors regarding the seven jersey unless Hooper gets injured.

I imagine there'll be plenty of discussion over whether Gill and/or Hodgson make the squad though.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
His stats aren't better either. They are significantly inferior. It's just a perception that people seem to have despite reality.
 

ViiiSnoopy

Frank Row (1)
Last season there were plenty of people on the Liam Gill bandwagon, but Hooper's efforts for the Wallabies in 2012 and 2013 combined with his form this year make him one of the easiest selections in the team.

I can't imagine there'll even be a discussion amongst the Wallaby selectors regarding the seven jersey unless Hooper gets injured.


Yer so my main problem is that he doesn't get better at international level (hooper) in fact i believe he plays very differently at the international level. If super rugby hooper was in the wallabies then yes he wins. But the way they play him he looks like a back, always playing a man or two wider than he should, and not hitting the ruck as much as he should. With his pace and ball skill they seem to use his a centre, he is at the end of set plays when he should be supporting that play.

While when gill goes up to international he plays the same as super rugby gill but fast, strong and i think he could be the new richie given time and most importantly the chance to play a game or two at the international level. He also to me is better then super rugby hooper and much much better than international hooper, in terms of a no.7.

TL'DR, to me hooper plays different from one level to another while gill just gets better.
 

Pete King

Phil Hardcastle (33)
While I can't advocate agreeing with Kearnsy on anything ever, that unfortunately aligns with my thoughts. Moore, Hooper and Izzy are the only 3 certain in their positions.

Slipper, Fardy and To'omua will be there somewhere but Slipper could play either side, Fardy could be lock or 6 and To'omua could be 10 or 12.

The rest are up in the air.

Personally I think a backline of:

White
Cooper
Cummins
To'omua
Kuridrani
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
Folau

is likely, but outside Izzy at the back and To'omua somewhere, I couldn't lock any of them away.
I dont think fardy can be considered a test lock, we need a bit of size there to help the scrum
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Scrubber I reckon that's an absolute gee up.

He would be the 4th or 5th choice option at 10 so that's not really relevant, you are not going to play him there if you have To'omua and Cooper starting.

Again he'd be lucky to be the 3rd choice 12, I'd argue you'd probably play better defensive players like Harris, Lilo, McCabe, Fainga'a and Godwin there over him at test level.

You're not going to play him at 13.

He's played one test on the wing and again, he's not a finisher and playing him there could be more detrimental to a well functioning backline than helpful.

Then at 15 he potentially could be the 3rd best option. I say potentially, because he's not even playing there. And his short comings (kicking off both feet, defence, high ball) are no stronger than Mogg. He was our best 15 in 2010. Since then Izzy has upped the level, Mogg has come along and Kurtley is not at that same level.

Generally you have a halfback sub, and inside back sub and an outside back sub.

Obviously he won't come on at half. If you bring on an inside back sub, he's not the one you're going to bring on. Then as an outside back sub, he really only covers one position, and you would only contemplate him replacing the player there in the case of injury.

I struggle to see what value he brings to the team besides the potential rabbit out of a hat play, which is offset by the risk of him being a defensive turnstile, liability under the high ball and lateral runner choking outside runners.

I understand all the comments about his match winning ability, but what happens if we aren't a try down with 10 to go and it's worth taking a risk with nothing to lose. How often are we in that position anyway?

What if we're a try up and we need to hold on to a game. Do you want him out there with SA throwing bombs up just outside the 22 or the All Blacks rumbling forward?


A bloody good post! 100% agree.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Yer so my main problem is that he doesn't get better at international level (hooper) in fact i believe he plays very differently at the international level. If super rugby hooper was in the wallabies then yes he wins. But the way they play him he looks like a back, always playing a man or two wider than he should, and not hitting the ruck as much as he should. With his pace and ball skill they seem to use his a centre, he is at the end of set plays when he should be supporting that play.

While when gill goes up to international he plays the same as super rugby gill but fast, strong and i think he could be the new richie given time and most importantly the chance to play a game or two at the international level. He also to me is better then super rugby hooper and much much better than international hooper, in terms of a no.7.

TL'DR, to me hooper plays different from one level to another while gill just gets better.

Your son is an excellent rugby player Mrs Gill.
 

BDA

Jim Lenehan (48)
Gill hasn't stood out particularly this year, but that is really part and parcel of him playing in a team that is just not in a good space right now.

I'm surprised that people have written off the likes of Simmons, Slipper, Horwill, etc this season however, for the most part the Reds forward pack has done the basics very well. What they lack is cohesion in defence and strike power in the backs. Slipper has been excellent, and Simmons has been much better than most people on this site give him credit for.

Gill might still challenge Hooper in his career, but not this year he wont.
 

BDA

Jim Lenehan (48)
I think most of the learned posters on this forum agree that whilst Gill is good, Hooper is better.

I think individual and team form often go hand in hand and both have a lot to do with perceptions about which players are better than others.

People were talking about Beau Robinson as a Wallaby back in 2011 when he was killing it in a championship winning side. Hodgson is playing down the house in strong Force team atm but do I think he's a better player than Gill? no.

like many of the star Reds players Gill's form is suffering in a losing environment.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Scrubber I reckon that's an absolute gee up.

He would be the 4th or 5th choice option at 10 so that's not really relevant, you are not going to play him there if you have To'omua and Cooper starting.

Again he'd be lucky to be the 3rd choice 12, I'd argue you'd probably play better defensive players like Harris, Lilo, McCabe, Fainga'a and Godwin there over him at test level.

You're not going to play him at 13.

He's played one test on the wing and again, he's not a finisher and playing him there could be more detrimental to a well functioning backline than helpful.

Then at 15 he potentially could be the 3rd best option. I say potentially, because he's not even playing there. And his short comings (kicking off both feet, defence, high ball) are no stronger than Mogg. He was our best 15 in 2010. Since then Izzy has upped the level, Mogg has come along and Kurtley is not at that same level.

Generally you have a halfback sub, and inside back sub and an outside back sub.

Obviously he won't come on at half. If you bring on an inside back sub, he's not the one you're going to bring on. Then as an outside back sub, he really only covers one position, and you would only contemplate him replacing the player there in the case of injury.

I struggle to see what value he brings to the team besides the potential rabbit out of a hat play, which is offset by the risk of him being a defensive turnstile, liability under the high ball and lateral runner choking outside runners.

I understand all the comments about his match winning ability, but what happens if we aren't a try down with 10 to go and it's worth taking a risk with nothing to lose. How often are we in that position anyway?

What if we're a try up and we need to hold on to a game. Do you want him out there with SA throwing bombs up just outside the 22 or the All Blacks rumbling forward?

Mate - I am a defeated man - great post
 

BDA

Jim Lenehan (48)
This might be an unpopular point of view but I actually think JOC (James O'Connor) is probably the best bench player for the world cup. Leaving aside whether he should be excluded for team culture reasons, he can play 11, 12, 14, 15 and not just at a pinch. in fact, damn well. He's world class 11 and 14, he has test level experience at 15 and offers both counter attacking ability and a strong boot, he has test experience at 12 and would probably offer something similar to Lilo in that position. He also has x factor and an ability to kick for goal if needed (and in fact has on several occasions kicked OZ to victory in big games - the 2011QF comes to mind).

Whilst you wouldn't want to play him at 10, if everything went to shit he does have some credentials having played 10 in a Lions Series (you couldn't get much harder conditions than that).
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
I somewhat do agree with your comments about JOC (James O'Connor)'s utility value. That being said I think you overstate it a little. JOC (James O'Connor) in defence at 12 is as much of a liability as Beale. If he wasn't able to contain a previously limited McCabe and a perennially limited Tom Carter, I don't like his chances against guys like Davies, Nonu, etc.

I think when talking utility value, when a player would not even be the 3rd choice player in a position, he doesn't really offer utility value relevant to that position. I agree he does offer a potential first choice option to cover wing and fullback.

With players like JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale though, when you are talking about moving them well out of position, surely somebody like McCabe offers more in that value. In the case of emergency, I'd rather, and feel safer with somebody like Pat McCabe playing out of position, than Beale or O'Conner. I see less of a potential backfire.
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
I wouldn't be questioning JOC (James O'Connor)'s defence at all, that season at the Rebels he was constantly injured and mismanaged. 2008-11 he was a very strong 1v1 defender. I remember him smashing Spies in the WC and Matfield in 2010.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Tackling ability and defensive ability are two separate things. Don't confuse them. JOC (James O'Connor) can be a very good tackler. He can also be a very bad defender.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top