Wallaby Blindside/Number 8 watch

[Joe Mac]

This is it

Props x 4: Robinson, Slipper, Kepu, Alexander
Hooker x 3: Polota-Nau, Moore, Fa'ingaa
Lock x 4: Sharpe, Horwill, Simmons, Pyle [Vickerman might get a spot, but he needs to play first]
Backrow x 6: Pocock, McCalman, Higginbotham, Elsom [subject to fitness], Samo (can play 4,5,6,8), B Robinson (need back-up special 7)
Scrumhalfs x 2: Genia and Burgess
Flyhalf/ Inside x 3: Cooper, O'Connor, Giteau
Outside x 3: Ashley-Cooper, Mortlock, Horne
Winger x 3: Ioane, Morahan, Gerrard
Fullback x 2: Beale, McCabe

 

[bazzamacca]

Morahan - whom I like very much - needs to play trinations, starting. If Mitchell doesn't find his way back and Deans wants JOC (James O'Connor) at 12, then Mozza is squarely in the frame for a starting wing spot. Even if Mitchell does come back, he and Digby both play left wing....

 

[kiap]

If memory serves, coaches have picked very few bolters in a World Cup year. If the guy has not featured in the previous season, he is only going to make it in the case of injury or if he is doing totally insane things, and even then coaches tend to fall back on players who have worked in the system.

That's why I think guys like Robinson and Samo are only a very slim chance.

Am I wrong?

Australia have always picked a few these bolters in every Rugby World Cup, even up to 5 in some of the tournaments.

Robinson and Samo probably have other players ahead of them at the moment, and Deans may be happy with the players he's already tried, who knows?

Incumbency does count for something but if a guy is not fit and in form it is a dubious gamble to select him. If the players pressing for selection are playing well enough then there is enough precedent for them to be selected in the squad.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If memory serves, coaches have picked very few bolters in a World Cup year. If the guy has not featured in the previous season, he is only going to make it in the case of injury or if he is doing totally insane things, and even then coaches tend to fall back on players who have worked in the system.

That's why I think guys like Robinson and Samo are only a very slim chance.

Am I wrong?

In general I agree. Most successful teams at the RWC have had a pretty settled line up going into the tournament. However, there have been a few examples of bolters being picked in the Wallaby squad (e.g. Bob Egerton in 1991, Troy Coker in 1987)

 

[DPK]

Barnes was a bolter in 07, wasn't he?

 

[bazzamacca]

In general I agree. Most successful teams at the RWC have had a pretty settled line up going into the tournament. However, there have been a few examples of bolters being picked in the Wallaby squad (e.g. Bob Egerton in 1991, Troy Coker in 1987)

Alan Jones Hearts Troy Coker

 

[saulih]

Barnes was a bolter in 07, wasn't he?

Yep, and he was the only one. No more than three players have debuted during the RWC's:

2003 Matt Dunning, John Roe
1999 Rod Moore, Scott Staniforth
1995 Joe Roff, Michael Foley, Daniel Manu
1991 David Nucifora
1987 Troy Coker

 

[kiap]

In general I agree. Most successful teams at the RWC have had a pretty settled line up going into the tournament. However, there have been a few examples of bolters being picked in the Wallaby squad (e.g. Bob Egerton in 1991, Troy Coker in 1987)

Yeah, John Eales, Joe Roff, Michael Foley, Marty Roebuck, Daniel Manu, Mark Connors, Jim Williams, Rod Kafer, Lote Tuqiri, and Berrick Barnes were a few others who were a bit lucky there, TBH.

1987
-----
Coker T
1. v  England 	       Sydney 	        23 May 1987 	
Smith B
1. v Korea 	       Brisbane 	17 May 1987
Herbert A
1. v Korea 	       Brisbane 	17 May 1987
James S
1. v Korea 	       Brisbane 	17 May 1987

1991
----
Eales J
1. v Wales              Brisbane        22 Jul 1991
5. v Argentina 	        Llanelli        4 Oct 1991
Roebuck M
1. v Wales 	        Brisbane 	22 Jul 1991 	
5. v Argentina 	        Llanelli 	4 Oct 1991 	
Nucifora D
1. v Argentina 	        Llanelli 	4 Oct 1991
Egerton R
1. v Wales 	        Brisbane 	22 Jul 1991

1995
----
Manu D
1. v Romania 	        Stellenbosch 	3 Jun 1995
Foley M
1. v Canada 	        Port Elizabeth 	31 May 1995
Roff J
1. v Canada 	        Port Elizabeth 	31 May 1995

1999
----
Kafer R
1. v New Zealand 	Sydney 	        28 Aug 1999
2. v Romania 	        Belfast 	3 Oct 1999 
Williams J
1. v Ireland 	        Brisbane 	12 Jun 1999 	
4. v USA 	        Limerick 	14 Oct 1999 	
Connors M
1. v South Africa 	Brisbane 	17 Jul 1999	
5. v Romania 	        Belfast 	3 Oct 1999 
Moore R
1. v USA 	        Limerick 	14 Oct 1999 		 			 	
Syaniforth S
1. v USA 	        Limerick 	14 Oct 1999

2003
----
Tuqiri L
1. v Ireland 	        Perth 	        7 Jun 2003 	
8. v Argentina 	        Sydney 	        10 Oct 2003 	
Turinui M 
1. v Ireland 	        Perth 	        7 Jun 2003 	
4. v Namibia 	        Adelaide 	25 Oct 2003	
Baxter A
1. v New Zealand 	Auckland 	16 Aug 2003
2. v Argentina 	        Sydney 	        10 Oct 2003
Roe J
1. v Namibia 	        Adelaide 	25 Oct 2003	
Dunning M
1. v Namibia 	        Adelaide 	25 Oct 2003

2007
----
Barnes B
1. v Japan 	         Lyon 	        8 Sep 2007
Huxley J
1. v Wales 	         Sydney 	26 May 2007
7. v Wales 	         Cardiff 	15 Sep 2007

 

[saulih]

Bob Egerton in 1991

Egerton debuted earlier in the year against Wales, and not at the RWC proper

 

[kiap]

Saulih, the criterion is "If the guy has not featured in the previous season".

 

[saulih]

Fair enough. I was noting debuts.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Yeah, John Eales, Joe Roff, Michael Foley, Marty Roebuck, Daniel Manu, Mark Connors, Jim Williams, Rod Kafer, Lote Tuqiri, and Berrick Barnes were a few others who were a bit lucky there, TBH.

Yeah, jeez none of those blokes could play

 

[jay-c]

love how in one breath people are whinging about elsom being picked... and yet are pushing for horne?
i rate horne highly but can you take a injury liability into a wc?
current form for me is the most important thing in considering selection

 

[tigerland12]

Elsom is a must for the world cup, the bloke is a quality player. But i think what most people are saying is that he has to start playing if he wants the first shot at the 6 jersey. He will 100% go to the WC.
Raises the question if he will be dropped as captain as well.

On Horne, the lack of outside centers is the main reason

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I've gone on the record as saying that I don't think we can win in NZ without Elsom. I don't back away from that. On that basis, it's very important that he gets some footy under his belt before running out at the RWC. I don't have a lot of hope of him playing in the 3N, but it would obviously be very advantageous if he does.

 

[JimboJoe1006]

This is it

Props x 4: Robinson, Slipper, Kepu, Alexander
Hooker x 3: Polota-Nau, Moore, Fa'ingaa
Lock x 4: Sharpe, Horwill, Simmons, Pyle [Vickerman might get a spot, but he needs to play first]
Backrow x 6: Pocock, McCalman, Higginbotham, Elsom [subject to fitness], Samo (can play 4,5,6,8), B Robinson (need back-up special 7)
Scrumhalfs x 2: Genia and Burgess
Flyhalf/ Inside x 3: Cooper, O'Connor, Giteau
Outside x 3: Ashley-Cooper, Mortlock, Horne
Winger x 3: Ioane, Morahan, Gerrard
Fullback x 2: Beale, McCabe

With all due respect, that isn't a great squad.

The tight five is OK, with the 4th lock-spot between Vickerman/Pyle/Mumm/Wykes.

In regards to the backrow, where is Palu? I understand the concerns that some people have about selecting the injured players, however, unlike Elsom and Vickerman, Palu was the form of his life prior to injury. In addition, by all accounts, he has bulked up significantly over the off-season and is just being held back relatively minor recurring injury. I would send a backrow of: Elsom; Palu; Pocock; McCalman/Mowen; Robinson/Hodgson and Samo/Dennis.

There must be three 9's - any serious calls for Giteau to play halfback is lunacy, especially in a WC. Phibbs to be the 3rd 9.

I agree that Barnes and Giteau are fairly similar - similarly good. It is not about trying to create a unique squad, balanced yes, but not some Noah's Ark squad where there is every differnet type of player. Pending Mitchell's recovery, one will wear 12 and the other 21.

Australia's outside backs' are very dynamic and I am lump them together into seven spots. No arguments about Beale, JOC (James O'Connor), AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Ioane. Horne and Mitchell have injury clouds, although both are in the former category should they recover. To replace Horne I would select Mortlock, and for Mitchell probably Turner but possibly Morahan. Thats leaves the final spot for Gerrard.

Robinson, Slipper, Kepu, Alexander (Palmer), TPN, Moore, S.Faainga (Charles), Sharpe, Horwill, Simmons, Vickerman/Pyle (Mumm), Pocock, Elsom, Palu, McCalman/Mowen, Robinson/Hodgson, Samo/Dennis, Genia, Burgess, Phibbs (McKibbon), Cooper, Giteau, Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor), Beale, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Ioane, Gerrard, Mitchell/Turner, Horne/Mortlock (Morahan).

*Next-in-line replacement in brackets.

 

[bazzamacca]

With all due respect, that isn't a great squad.

Robinson, Slipper, Kepu, Alexander (Palmer), TPN, Moore, S.Faainga (Charles), Sharpe, Horwill, Simmons, Vickerman/Pyle (Mumm), Pocock, Elsom, Palu, McCalman/Mowen, Robinson/Hodgson, Samo/Dennis, Genia, Burgess, Phibbs (McKibbon), Cooper, Giteau, Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor), Beale, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Ioane, Gerrard, Mitchell/Turner, Horne/Mortlock (Morahan).

*Next-in-line replacement in brackets.

With the most fulsome respect I think you are about as decisive as a kid in a candy store. Are you a woman?

"The tight five is OK, with the 4th lock-spot between Vickerman/Pyle/Mumm/Wykes" - no shit sherlock.

"I would send a backrow of: Elsom; Palu; Pocock; McCalman/Mowen; Robinson/Hodgson and Samo/Dennis." - yes I would ignore Higginbotham too. He's far from the best performed and diverse backrower in Oz SupeRugby 2011. I would also pick several uncapped forwards in his place. You never know Mowen, Robinson, Dennis could be the find of the RWC - John Eales' second coming.

"There must be three 9's - any serious calls for Giteau to play halfback is lunacy, especially in a WC. Phibbs to be the 3rd " - yeah the uncapped, untried Phibbs should be selected over a guy who got MoM v Wales in his first intl outing as a 9, who can also play 10/12 and possibly other backline positions extremely well. Any serious calls that the third 9 will have serious consequential gametime in the RWC are a complete fecking joke t any rate.

 

[cyclopath]

You know what ''fulsome'' means, I guess, BM? I'm guessing you do.
Also, I presume you guys mean Phipps, as Phibbs would have to be a very long shot.

 

[JimboJoe1006]

With the most fulsome respect I think you are about as decisive as a kid in a candy store. Are you a woman?

"The tight five is OK, with the 4th lock-spot between Vickerman/Pyle/Mumm/Wykes" - no shit sherlock.

"I would send a backrow of: Elsom; Palu; Pocock; McCalman/Mowen; Robinson/Hodgson and Samo/Dennis." - yes I would ignore Higginbotham too. He's far from the best performed and diverse backrower in Oz SupeRugby 2011. I would also pick several uncapped forwards in his place. You never know Mowen, Robinson, Dennis could be the find of the RWC - John Eales' second coming.

"There must be three 9's - any serious calls for Giteau to play halfback is lunacy, especially in a WC. Phibbs to be the 3rd " - yeah the uncapped, untried Phibbs should be selected over a guy who got MoM v Wales in his first intl outing as a 9, who can also play 10/12 and possibly other backline positions extremely well. Any serious calls that the third 9 will have serious consequential gametime in the RWC are a complete fecking joke t any rate.

First of all, yes I am Joe the lady.
1) I put the four the locks in descending order and should have made that more clear
2) Higginbotham was a typo. I was meant to have him in brackets for the back-rowers. In the inevitable event that any of the other back-rowers are injured he will take their place. I have dashed the decisions which I think selectors will need to make to ensure a good dynamic and balance in the squad. For the most part, I consider these places pretty close but would probably select McCalman, Robinson and Dennis (Higginbotham) if pressured.
3) There was no typo regarding Giteau. Not only is the WC squad not the time to take risks with injuries, Giteau is also the first-choice 12. In any event, your team would include Giteau as the 3rd 9, as well as 1st 12, 2nd 10, in addition to "other backline positions"! Spreading it a little thin I would suggest. In any event, when Burgess' is out of form, he is bad enough, that I would consider Phibbs game time may not be a complete joke.

 

[Joe Mac]

With all due respect, that isn't a great squad.

Interesting input Jimbo but I have to say that I dont agree with anything you have said here. (Doesn't mean im right though!)

My reasoning is that;

Palu needs to prove himself before you put him in the squad over Samo who is the form Australian 8 of 2011. I realise Palu was a revelation in 2009 during the autumn internationals but he hasn't exactly played a lot of footy since then... 2 years! Samo is outstanding form and offers the same qualities that Palu does except he also adds positional versatility and another line-out option... That for me places him ahead of Palu.

Higgers is Australia's form no 6 so excluding him for the mediocre talent that is Dennis would be well, insane.

Im happy you agree Barnes and Giteau are similar, but there is actually more to the noah's ark thing than you think. We are taking a squad of players. If a player has a particular strength to counter a particular weakness that we face from a particular centre combination, why not cater for that weakness? I agree a team should play to their strengths but players like SBW need to be controlled and the only proven way thus far is with a strong rush defence lead by an equally big unit. Taking these two players and excluding someone like Mortlock acheives nothing.

The chances of both our 9's being injured is minescule. In fact, i would venture to say that no World Cup squad has lost both of its halves in a competition. The fact that Giteau has played 9, very successfully, means that we are well catered for in this area so I think we are better to use that extra spot for a probable replacement. The idea we would take Phibbs as no 3 is also crazy. If they did take 3 9's; the third would be Phipps with an outside chance of taking kingy due to his versatility in the backline. And your other choice of McCibbin? That more insane that the Dennis thing!

Anyway, thats just my opinion...